RCCrawler Forums

mudd_slinger · 10-27-2011, 06:46 PM

i was wandering if the hand wound motors are really worth the money? how are they superior to a regular brushed and how do they compare to the brushless motors. what are popular motors most run and turn differences. i have a venom modified 60t brushed and its slow as hell. awesome crawling ability but no punch. i was debating on a 45t but dont know what to put my money on. i dont care to spend the cash, i just want to make shure i get a quality motor.

Duuuuuuuude · 10-27-2011, 07:50 PM

A regular machine wound motor is just that, machine wound. As long as the machine gets X number of winds on the armature they consider it good to go.

A hand wound motor is much more than that, it is carefully wound by hand in one of a few specific ways and patterns to make them more powerful in both speed and torque categories. They also have a much smoother operation and are typically better balanced.

Probably the two most popular winds are 35t and 45t. The 35t gives you a bit more wheel speed, the 45t gives you a bit more torque.

mudd_slinger · 10-28-2011, 09:25 PM

thanks Duuuuuuuude

eastside · 10-29-2011, 06:17 AM

So a hand wound motor is more precise in throttle response because the windings are more "uniform" when comared to a mass produced machine wound motor? In your opinion, is it worth the extra expense?

mudd_slinger · 10-29-2011, 08:10 AM

i think im going to try the 35t hand wound.

mudd_slinger · 10-29-2011, 08:15 AM

what to pic from? the crawlmaster, torquemaster,cobalt puller? what should i go with? whats the specific differences in the motors?

DRV KRAWLER · 10-29-2011, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudd_slinger

what to pic from? the crawlmaster, torquemaster,cobalt puller? what should i go with? whats the specific differences in the motors?

Puller motors are quite large. Really depends on what you are building. I am a HUGE Fan of Holmes Hobbies Motors. I have a 45t TorqueMaster Pro Handwound 540 Brushed motor in my "OG" Build. I also have a 16t CrawlMaster Pro 540 in my "PD" Build. On both of these motors I am running a 16t pinion w/ 87 spur gear.
45 t Torque master has great torque. and the CrawlMaster has great torque and great wheel speed. Both are smooth on the throttle especially the CrawlMaster.

A 35 t motor is a great choice. Check out Johns stuff great price and excellent customer service.

omenwolf · 10-29-2011, 08:57 AM

I think all would agree That the Holmes Hobbies Handwounds are the best Brushed motors you can spend your money on. I have 2 and before I got these I ran throw aways basicly from tekin, integy, trinity and traxxas and the Holmes by FAR blows them all away I have yet to run and equal to them. Holmes = money well spent!!!

jcboof · 10-29-2011, 10:06 AM

X2 on Holmes Hobbies! John specializes strictly in motors for crawlers and has supported this hobby for years. Past few years National Champions have been running his motors because they demand the best. Not to mention John is one of the most helpful vendors on this site and has amazing customer service.

There is only one option IMO, Holmes Hobbies.

mudd_slinger · 10-29-2011, 07:44 PM

is there a way to get a hold of him directly or do you just have to go thew his site.

Manning · 10-29-2011, 09:57 PM

If you are competing and/or have the $$$ to spend, get a handwound. If you are just playing around, a machine wound is fine.

soutthpaw · 11-08-2011, 08:57 AM

It would seem to me that with all the hi tech machine assembly equipment out there that it would be easy to have a motor winding machine duplicate and even do better motor winding that doing it by hand. I can see that a standard winding machine in some Chicom factory just winding from the center and letting the windings droop to one side then the other. It would seem reasonable that a quality machine and manufacturing methods could build a motor that exceeds the hand wound in accuracy and lay patterns?

If so then I am guessing there is no manufacturers currently building a machine wound motor to this quality standard?

JohnRobHolmes · 11-08-2011, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soutthpaw

It would seem to me that with all the hi tech machine assembly equipment out there that it would be easy to have a motor winding machine duplicate and even do better motor winding that doing it by hand. I can see that a standard winding machine in some Chicom factory just winding from the center and letting the windings droop to one side then the other. It would seem reasonable that a quality machine and manufacturing methods could build a motor that exceeds the hand wound in accuracy and lay patterns?

If so then I am guessing there is no manufacturers currently building a machine wound motor to this quality standard?

Yes, it is possible to program a machine to pattern wind. With a flyer and optical tracking it could do quite well. However, unless we were making 10s of thousands of motors every year the cost would not be worth it. R/C is a very small niche overall, and brushed motors are used in an even smaller segment. Winding isn't the hardest part anyway, nor is it the most time consuming.

Very interesting point though. My gut tells me that a pattern wound armature made on a machine would be the same cost as a hand wound armature in the end. Machine time can be a lot more expensive than hiring a skilled hand.

highlandcrawler · 11-08-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soutthpaw

It would seem to me that with all the hi tech machine assembly equipment out there that it would be easy to have a motor winding machine duplicate and even do better motor winding that doing it by hand. I can see that a standard winding machine in some Chicom factory just winding from the center and letting the windings droop to one side then the other. It would seem reasonable that a quality machine and manufacturing methods could build a motor that exceeds the hand wound in accuracy and lay patterns?

If so then I am guessing there is no manufacturers currently building a machine wound motor to this quality standard?

A machine of that magnitude to out build a expert hand winder would cost more money than its worth I bet. An expert winder with a winding jig is both fast and reliable. He can lay eyes on every strand and ensure it falls in the exact spot it should.

*Holmes beat me to posting*

JohnRobHolmes · 11-08-2011, 09:27 AM

The shitty part about using a machine is that every wind count and armature type will need a new CNC code. Can't save time on a single arm when it could take 10x longer just to modify the code as it would to just wind the dang thing. Making them in the 100s, now we are talking feasable but still an order of magnitude off to justify very expensive machinery.

EddieO · 11-08-2011, 09:35 AM

I've posted on this before....they make em. They exist.....they are extremely expensive. Some of the slot car companies use them. I can tell you, even with all the programming and such, I can always see the difference. The guy at the local slot car track bet me I could not. They had 100s of motors in stock from multiple companies........every time I picked out the handwound vs the machine wound, I didn't fail once.

Our armatures compared to a slot arm are even worse. The wire is much bigger first off, but where are our arms gain the difficulty of dealing with much thicker, uneven or just abnormal Hysol (the green stuff on the arms). Anyone who has ever wound will tell you, some arms just CANNOT be wound with certain winds because of the Hysol. I've been experiencing this with the Skewed arms.....we just can't wind big wire on some blanks no matter what we try........we basically have to cherry pick the arms for HHK winds, while using the rest for normal winds.

To further, after looking at winders that were $100,000+, there are simply patterns they CANNOT do. This is OK on slot car arms, but on our handwounds sometimes we pack the copper is strange locations to make the pattern work......the CNC winders won't do it, as they don't have the ability. I sent samples of singles, doubles, triples, with both easy patterns and very difficult to a company that produced a winder.....while it did an OK job on the easy pattern stuff.....it failed miserably on the difficult, some were even sent back saying the machine could not do it. I intentionally sent arms with weird hysol........those looked like Ray Charles wound them........drunk. Price of the machine, $200,000+......waste of time.

The worst part is you still need someone to operate these machines! So you are not really saving much in the first place..........

And like John said.........really the winding part is only one step......you still clean it, gotta solder/weld it, epoxy it, cut the comm, balance it.....

I guess the term handwound instills belief that is the only or main difference......its really just one part of a lengthy process that produces a superior motor.

Later EddieO

JohnRobHolmes · 11-08-2011, 10:12 AM

The hysol coating is indeed a tough point for getting repeatable results, even with a person doing the work. That would be where optical tracking comes in to avoid defects caused by imperfect arms. The advantage of a person doing the work is that the arm can be tossed or set aside for less copper voume, but when they are trying to push a machine as fast as possible that step would likely be skipped. As Eddie stated, it would be even more difficult on arms that are already packed full or winds where the base layer does not support the full stack of wire like a neat pyramid- and that describes just about every common wind used in crawling.

10-27-2011, 06:46 PM	#1
mudd_slinger Quarry Creeper Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: in the 7eventh level of hell Posts: 314	Hand wound motors? i was wandering if the hand wound motors are really worth the money? how are they superior to a regular brushed and how do they compare to the brushless motors. what are popular motors most run and turn differences. i have a venom modified 60t brushed and its slow as hell. awesome crawling ability but no punch. i was debating on a 45t but dont know what to put my money on. i dont care to spend the cash, i just want to make shure i get a quality motor.

10-27-2011, 07:50 PM	#2
Duuuuuuuude Suck it up! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Arkansas Posts: 11,652	A regular machine wound motor is just that, machine wound. As long as the machine gets X number of winds on the armature they consider it good to go. A hand wound motor is much more than that, it is carefully wound by hand in one of a few specific ways and patterns to make them more powerful in both speed and torque categories. They also have a much smoother operation and are typically better balanced. Probably the two most popular winds are 35t and 45t. The 35t gives you a bit more wheel speed, the 45t gives you a bit more torque.

10-28-2011, 09:25 PM	#3
mudd_slinger Quarry Creeper Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: in the 7eventh level of hell Posts: 314	thanks Duuuuuuuude

10-29-2011, 06:17 AM	#4
eastside Newbie Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: eastern sierra Posts: 34	So a hand wound motor is more precise in throttle response because the windings are more "uniform" when comared to a mass produced machine wound motor? In your opinion, is it worth the extra expense?

10-29-2011, 08:10 AM	#5
mudd_slinger Quarry Creeper Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: in the 7eventh level of hell Posts: 314	i think im going to try the 35t hand wound.

10-29-2011, 08:15 AM	#6
mudd_slinger Quarry Creeper Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: in the 7eventh level of hell Posts: 314	what to pic from? the crawlmaster, torquemaster,cobalt puller? what should i go with? whats the specific differences in the motors?

10-29-2011, 08:57 AM	#8
omenwolf Pebble Pounder Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Gresham Posts: 136	I think all would agree That the Holmes Hobbies Handwounds are the best Brushed motors you can spend your money on. I have 2 and before I got these I ran throw aways basicly from tekin, integy, trinity and traxxas and the Holmes by FAR blows them all away I have yet to run and equal to them. Holmes = money well spent!!!

10-29-2011, 10:06 AM	#9
jcboof I wanna be Dave Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: I miss Rowdy Posts: 2,238	X2 on Holmes Hobbies! John specializes strictly in motors for crawlers and has supported this hobby for years. Past few years National Champions have been running his motors because they demand the best. Not to mention John is one of the most helpful vendors on this site and has amazing customer service. There is only one option IMO, Holmes Hobbies.

10-29-2011, 07:44 PM	#10
mudd_slinger Quarry Creeper Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: in the 7eventh level of hell Posts: 314	is there a way to get a hold of him directly or do you just have to go thew his site.

10-29-2011, 09:57 PM	#11
Manning RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lowell, Arkansas Posts: 1,307	If you are competing and/or have the $$$ to spend, get a handwound. If you are just playing around, a machine wound is fine.

11-08-2011, 08:57 AM	#12
soutthpaw Pebble Pounder Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Fountain Posts: 100	It would seem to me that with all the hi tech machine assembly equipment out there that it would be easy to have a motor winding machine duplicate and even do better motor winding that doing it by hand. I can see that a standard winding machine in some Chicom factory just winding from the center and letting the windings droop to one side then the other. It would seem reasonable that a quality machine and manufacturing methods could build a motor that exceeds the hand wound in accuracy and lay patterns? If so then I am guessing there is no manufacturers currently building a machine wound motor to this quality standard?

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11-08-2011, 09:27 AM	#15
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	The shitty part about using a machine is that every wind count and armature type will need a new CNC code. Can't save time on a single arm when it could take 10x longer just to modify the code as it would to just wind the dang thing. Making them in the 100s, now we are talking feasable but still an order of magnitude off to justify very expensive machinery.

11-08-2011, 09:35 AM	#16
EddieO I wanna be Dave Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arlington, Washington Posts: 2,303	I've posted on this before....they make em. They exist.....they are extremely expensive. Some of the slot car companies use them. I can tell you, even with all the programming and such, I can always see the difference. The guy at the local slot car track bet me I could not. They had 100s of motors in stock from multiple companies........every time I picked out the handwound vs the machine wound, I didn't fail once. Our armatures compared to a slot arm are even worse. The wire is much bigger first off, but where are our arms gain the difficulty of dealing with much thicker, uneven or just abnormal Hysol (the green stuff on the arms). Anyone who has ever wound will tell you, some arms just CANNOT be wound with certain winds because of the Hysol. I've been experiencing this with the Skewed arms.....we just can't wind big wire on some blanks no matter what we try........we basically have to cherry pick the arms for HHK winds, while using the rest for normal winds. To further, after looking at winders that were $100,000+, there are simply patterns they CANNOT do. This is OK on slot car arms, but on our handwounds sometimes we pack the copper is strange locations to make the pattern work......the CNC winders won't do it, as they don't have the ability. I sent samples of singles, doubles, triples, with both easy patterns and very difficult to a company that produced a winder.....while it did an OK job on the easy pattern stuff.....it failed miserably on the difficult, some were even sent back saying the machine could not do it. I intentionally sent arms with weird hysol........those looked like Ray Charles wound them........drunk. Price of the machine, $200,000+......waste of time. The worst part is you still need someone to operate these machines! So you are not really saving much in the first place.......... And like John said.........really the winding part is only one step......you still clean it, gotta solder/weld it, epoxy it, cut the comm, balance it..... I guess the term handwound instills belief that is the only or main difference......its really just one part of a lengthy process that produces a superior motor. Later EddieO

11-08-2011, 10:12 AM	#17
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	The hysol coating is indeed a tough point for getting repeatable results, even with a person doing the work. That would be where optical tracking comes in to avoid defects caused by imperfect arms. The advantage of a person doing the work is that the arm can be tossed or set aside for less copper voume, but when they are trying to push a machine as fast as possible that step would likely be skipped. As Eddie stated, it would be even more difficult on arms that are already packed full or winds where the base layer does not support the full stack of wire like a neat pyramid- and that describes just about every common wind used in crawling.

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Thread: Hand wound motors?