Danger Dingo (updated - 3/20/2012 R2 Enclosed Dig Trans Install)

[Rcc4P]

Great primer for my upcoming noob (to crawlers) dingo build. I'll start by saying I REALLY appreciate it. It was just what I was looking for before I dive in. I hope you don't mind a few (well a lot) of questions, and I hope I don't misquote anything I read 3, 4 and 5 pages back!

Did you (or Steve O) ever figure out where/how the plastic spacer goes in the transmission?

For shock setup I think you have them nearly full of oil, presumably the oil in the kit? There was mention of draining 95% of the stock oil but I don't think that was your rig? I had toyed with this idea of running with just enough lube to keep things operating smoothly. No need for speed on my rig.

For shock mounting you started with them vertical, but then gave them some angle from lower mount (outbound) to upper mount (inbound)? I had read previously this could help with articulation. Also you mention installing super soft springs ... this was only for rear shocks, yes? I say because the parts list suggest the fronts come stock super soft while the rears are medium out of the box.

I think the articulation your achieving is what I am after for my budget build, and my heart dropped when you shared your disappointment with articulation out of the box, so, more questions ... The zip tie limiter is to drop the ride height only? I couldn't tell exactly what was being tied to what, and what this was doing for your rig from the pics (other than the obvious ... dropping the ride height). No impact on articulation, positive or negative?

I guess, if you could say X,Y, and Z was done to get the articulation you have, what would that be? Properly oiled and angled shocks, springs, and wheel weights?

I know nothing about these trucks other than what I have read, but could your wheelying be from not just the juicy motor, but also the torque twist? If in forward it lifts the front tire and reverse just the opposite torque twist may be a contributing factor to the wheelies. I ask because I read up on mirroring the tranny to counteract the torque twist and keep the front planted. It sounded good in theory but I hesitate to install the tranny the opposite of spec before trying it spec first.

You mentioned you might cut the bumpers to clear the PL's, but I can't see they're cut. Did you end up not worrying about the tires rubbing, or am I missing the cuts?

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.

[Optiskate]

Originally Posted by Rcc4P

Great primer for my upcoming noob (to crawlers) dingo build. I'll start by saying I REALLY appreciate it. It was just what I was looking for before I dive in. I hope you don't mind a few (well a lot) of questions, and I hope I don't misquote anything I read 3, 4 and 5 pages back!

Did you (or Steve O) ever figure out where/how the plastic spacer goes in the transmission?

For shock setup I think you have them nearly full of oil, presumably the oil in the kit? There was mention of draining 95% of the stock oil but I don't think that was your rig? I had toyed with this idea of running with just enough lube to keep things operating smoothly. No need for speed on my rig.

For shock mounting you started with them vertical, but then gave them some angle from lower mount (outbound) to upper mount (inbound)? I had read previously this could help with articulation. Also you mention installing super soft springs ... this was only for rear shocks, yes? I say because the parts list suggest the fronts come stock super soft while the rears are medium out of the box.

I think the articulation your achieving is what I am after for my budget build, and my heart dropped when you shared your disappointment with articulation out of the box, so, more questions ... The zip tie limiter is to drop the ride height only? I couldn't tell exactly what was being tied to what, and what this was doing for your rig from the pics (other than the obvious ... dropping the ride height). No impact on articulation, positive or negative?

I guess, if you could say X,Y, and Z was done to get the articulation you have, what would that be? Properly oiled and angled shocks, springs, and wheel weights?

I know nothing about these trucks other than what I have read, but could your wheelying be from not just the juicy motor, but also the torque twist? If in forward it lifts the front tire and reverse just the opposite torque twist may be a contributing factor to the wheelies. I ask because I read up on mirroring the tranny to counteract the torque twist and keep the front planted. It sounded good in theory but I hesitate to install the tranny the opposite of spec before trying it spec first.

You mentioned you might cut the bumpers to clear the PL's, but I can't see they're cut. Did you end up not worrying about the tires rubbing, or am I missing the cuts?

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I haven't had a whole lot of time to get on lately.

I just tossed the plastic spacer from the trans back in my pile of unused parts. I never did find out how exactly it went into the trans. It didn't seem like it belonged in there what so ever.

To tune my shocks I filled them up almost all the way, cycled them so that they bled the air out, and that also caused a lot of oil to spill over the top. I cleaned that oil off and when they stopped bubbling I buttoned them up. They had little to no rebound at all, but they did have a little resistance on the up travel. By a little I mean hardly any, but it was there.

For mounting the shocks, I mounted them to the axle in the conventional manner and then kicked them toward the center of the vehicle on the shock tower. I want to try to mount them more inbound, but with the softer springs I don't know if its that great of an idea. Honestly crazy articulation is over rated. I may try to go a little inward with longer shocks mounted up higher (to maintain a lower ride height) later, but I'll do it in such a way that I can return it to how it is.

For springs I ran super soft uppers and soft lowers. I also ran the stock 30wt oil. This might go against what most people tend to like. It allows the suspension to move fairly quickly and very responsive. This has its ups and downs and its something I still might play around with a bit. I haven't been around any other SCX-10's. I hope that some time soon I can get some time around some competition oriented SCX-10's and learn a bit more about how they're setup and what their reasoning is. I do think that some times the light springs can hurt be a bit, but don't have enough drive time decide what way I like it best yet. One thing I did note was that it does allow for more torque twist when you get on the throttle, but if you drive smart and aren't on the throttle all the time then it doesn't seem to be an issue. Honestly I can keep up with my buddies highly modded AX-10 pretty damn well and I've done things that neither my friend nor I thought the SCX-10 could ever do.

I did limit the suspension front and rear. I did it mainly to keep the ride height lower. Its a double edged sword. You tend to high center a bit more easily. However, I can get crazy sideways. There are other advantages to this though. When you're climbing your rear end wont try to lift. Its almost like having suck down winches, only you never release them. I've been in many situations thus far where I know without the zip tie limiting straps I wouldn't have made it through. The suspension wont push away at all, it wont lift, or do anything funky. Its actually fairly predictable. However, the suspension design itself is tried and true so how much of that is due to the limiting straps and how much the design of the suspension itself, I have no idea. The 4 link rear and 3 link w/panhard front is very well mannered. So that plays a big factor in it as well. I'd suggest doing limiting straps, but the way PinchFlat said he sets his suspension up would probably be a bit more forgiving than the way I did it. The limiting straps do not affect the articulation though. The way I have my suspension set up flexes like mad and is only limited by shock length. The front strap is attached to the 3 link truss with an extra long bolt through the upper link mount. Its attached to the bolt and held on like PinchFlat illustrated in his pics. It uses 2 zip ties. One goes around the bolt and the other goes around that zip tie securing it tightly to the bolt. Then I put a nut on the end of the bold, but didn't screw it all the way down. Its on the very end of the bolt. If that makes sense.

If you want the same kind of articulation. I'd say a slight angle on the shocks will be fine. If you run soft lower springs, then you'll probably reduce the efficiency of the sock if you angle them in any more than what I did. It might allow for too much torque twist and it may also allow a ton of body roll on side hills. Wheel weights are huge. They made a big difference. It forces the suspension to articulate. It really keep the tires in contact with the ground as much as possible. My suspension compresses easily, but the weights also pull the tires down quickly. As long as I don't run out of travel, I always have my tires on the ground and traction doesn't seem to be an issue. I can see where a medium spring might help though. The only thing that I've seen so far that my Dingo doesn't excel is large ledges. More wheel base would help and more ground clearance would be better. However, it will go up them. I'm still trying to figure out the trick to finessing it up. Like I said, it goes right up them, but there's a trick to it that I haven't quite got figured out yet. I know you need to get the front end up first, then you need to get one back tire in position to hit the ledge. Usually the rig is at a slight angle. If you don't hit it with enough throttle then the whole rig just straightens out and high centers. If you get it with enough throttle then the back end will hit and start to climb, but the trick is to not high center and not to violently bounce or there's the possibility that it will roll. So I'm trying to figure out exactly how my rig likes to do it.

I did cut the bumpers. Twice, actually... The first time it was barely noticeable and just enough to where the tires didn't rub on them. The second time I totally cut off the sides of the bumpers where the wrap around the side of the dingo. I did this because the sides catch on things and totally prevent the rig from climbing. Especially on anything undercut. I highly recommend doing the same. It made a huge difference in what I could do and where I could go.

My honest suggestion, if you mod things out of the gate, then do everything in moderation. Don't do anything extreme until you have a bit of drive time on it. At least then you'll know what you want and how you drive. A setup that works well for me may not work at all for you just based on driving style. Its like my buddy and I. His rig crawls well and his driving style is slower and more conservative. He makes his rig go most every where he points it though. He also doesn't beat the crap out of his rig like I do. My driving style is more aggressive. Its a mixture of finesse when I need it and brute force as I see fit. I could never get by with a 55T motor like my friend. I'll use my wheel speed to my advantage. My setup might not work for you. At the same time you may love it. It just all depends on how you like to drive. There's no right or wrong way to go about, just what works for you.

You cant go wrong with a few things though. I'd say 4 link the rear, 3 link w/panhard the front (I could pop apart the joint on the axle end of the upper link with the wishbone style 3 link easily), CMS, limiting straps (only because they're quick and easy to remove if you don't like them), wheel weights for sure, a good set of bead locks, a new set of tires (stock ones suck... I LOVE my Pitbulls), and try to mount your electronics and battery low. Just starting like that will give you a good performance boost.

I've got a dig unit now that I will be installing soon. I'll post up how that goes. I'm unsure of much climbing performance I'll get from that as the rear is already limited via zip tie limiting strap. It will certainly let me make tight turns that I wouldn't normally be able to make though.

[Optiskate]

I wanted to do a little update regarding my tire and wheel choice. Sort of a review.


First the tires. The Pitbulls are super soft and very sticky. They pretty much work like the real 1:1 Pitbulls, amazing! They work fairly well in dirt and clean awesome. In mud they also clean very awesome. They passed my muddy hill climb test with flying colors. I honestly did not think it would even make it much more than half way up the muddy uneven gnarly hill. It did though. It made it look easy even when my battery was almost dead and it was loosing power. It even had pretty decent rooster tails doing it. With wet rock it also did excellent. The tires slipped a little, but that's to be expected. With a little finesse and a little wheel speed where needed they walked everything I tried. Now, in dry conditions these tires are flat out amazing. The grip is unbelievable. They are unstoppable in dry rock. In sand they're okay. Not stellar, but not bad.

The Prolines Titus rims are awesome. I was asked awhile back how well they held the Pitbulls on and I got to put them through some crazy real world testing yesterday that blew my mind. My German Shepard met my Dingo for the first time yesterday. He proceeded to try to remove the tires from the rims. Despite his best attempts, he could not get the tires off. In fact, I thought he destroyed one of my tires as he had it in his mouth and was attempting to rip it of the dingo. I didn't know he hated tires so much, but apparently he goes after the lawn mower tires too. He lives with my parents, not me, because the wife didn't want him around the kids. Its not that hes bad with kids, but hes big, clumsy, and loves to lick a lot. He knocks the kids over and then slobbers all over them, which my wife hates. Any way, he really went to town on a couple of my tires and they didn't even begin to separate from the rim. Not only that, but the Pitbulls themselves held up great to the dog induced abuse.

That being said, I think this tire and wheel combo is a winning combination. The tires hook up amazingly well in 90% of all situations I've put them through and they're amazingly durable and dog resistant. The wheels hold the tires on amazingly well. My dog couldn't even rip them off when he was trying to. In my opinion, you cant go wrong with this tire and wheel combo.

[Optiskate]

I started my dig unit install. I can sum this whole experience up in one word.... FRUSTRATION!

I got a HR dig unit due to price. "What could go wrong," I thought to myself. The install itself went fairly straight forward.

First I pulled my transmission out and put in the new rear output. It is made to go engage into the slotted collar in the dig unit itself. Its fairly straight forward to install and if you have a kit rather than a ready to run, then you should already be familiar with the process.



Here are the guts of the dig unit.





Here is the mounting plate on the trans.



After I put the mounting plate on the trans I checked the trans for binding and it spun freely much like it did when I first assembled it and before I took it apart to install the dig unit.

Here is the dig unit all bolted up, minus the cover.



And finally here it is with the cover on all bolted up.




This is where the trouble starts. After I tried to spin the unit while engaged, it bound up badly. Off of the trans the dig spins fine. The trans spins fine without the dig unit on it as well. So it's binding some where between the two. I cant quite figure it out. I think that it might be that the posts that the dig unit mounts to on the base plate are cocked a little bit. If the dig unit is set on top in such a way that the screw holes don't line up, then I can get it to spin freely, but with the unit screwed down, then it wont. I'm going to try to pull the post off the base plate and retighten them down in an effort to get this thing to work. Its pissing me off though. I've spent quite awhile trying to get it all figured out and fixed. Thus far I've got nothing.

I'm also hoping that I have enough servo to push it. I'm thinking I don't now though. I don't have a way to mount the servo just yet, so I'm not concerned with that. Right now I'm just trying to get the dig unit itself on my trans.

[Optiskate]

I finally got the Dig unit to operate without binding up. It took a little playing around with to get it. Basically I took the backing plate off, loosened the posts up, then tightened them by hand as tight as I could get them. The way they screw on, they should self center and be straight, but apparently they weren't on straight from the factory. After that it went back together smooth and no long bound up. I did notice that there was a tiny rough spot, but it was barely noticeable. I could spin the spur gear around and let go of it and the outputs would spin around multiple times effortlessly. It was probably mostly slowed down by the grease in the trans. So I'm not worried about it. Like I said, that spot was so barely noticeable that I almost didn't notice it. I also noticed that if I lubricated the unit itself, then it didn't run as nicely. It would cause it to not engage as easily and operate more stiffly. It was like packing the trans or diffs so full of grease that they don't spin freely, only there wasn't that much grease on it. So I cleaned the grease off of the majority of it.

I'm going to try to scare up some sheet metal tonight to make a servo mount. Chances are it'll only be 26ga, so I'll double it up to help add some rigidity. We'll see what happens. I still have to flip my skid around to get the dig on the rear drive shaft, cut down the drive shaft, make the servo mount, and wrap up a few loose ends and make everything fit. I may have to get a stronger servo to run this dig, but It doesn't take whole lot of effort to engage and disengage it. I can do it by barely applying any pressure on it, I know the servo applies more pressure that I was.

I did notice that the 3rd channel on my radio is simply on/off. So I'm going to run it 4wd and Fwd w/rear locked. So I'll be able to front dig. My suspension is limited, almost like having suck down winches on a 1:1, so the advantages to climbing that the dig would add with a Fwd w/rear free would be fairly limited any way.

[The-Blacksheep]

great looking man, you should be able to use a very light servo to make it work, i had a comp crawler with a hitec 225 i think it was and it was plenty powerful, so you should be good there

[Optiskate]

Originally Posted by The-Blacksheep

great looking man, you should be able to use a very light servo to make it work, i had a comp crawler with a hitec 225 i think it was and it was plenty powerful, so you should be good there

That's really good to know. I'll be running a HS-81. Its a micro servo and I got it because I thought it would fit under the body. I need to see if I have a plastic horn that will work because none of the horns that came with it will. We'll see what happens. When the kids go to bed I'll get back to work on getting the dig in and running. That servo plate will probably take most of the night if not part of tomorrow though.

[Optiskate]

Failure....


I toasted my dig servo. I got it all mounted up, attached the linkage, and the tried to adjust my end points. Well, for some reason I cant get my end points to adjust. Its either all the way one way or another, there's no in between and no adjusting it. Needless to say, not realizing this and how I should have setup the linkage in the first place, I stripped a bunch of teeth off my gears in my servo.

I guess I'll have to go to the hobby shop and see if I can scare up another servo. I'll have to get the same servo, or at least I think I will, in order to make it fit on my mount. Hopefully they have one.

[Optiskate]

I finished my dig install. It is by no means 100% totally finished. There are still some kinks that need to be ironed out. My biggest issue is that I have a sneaking suspicion that the dig unit is ever so slightly off center. I think I need to find myself a good metal trans case and gears to eliminate all deflection and flex in the housing itself that could allow for things to become misaligned.

I tested it and it worked alright. I noticed inside that some times you had to blip reverse to get the rear end to lock. The little kink seems to be getting less and less common the more I've run it outside though.

Here's a shot of my original failed linkage attempt that killed my first servo. For some reason the end points wouldn't adjust.



I made my mount out of 26ga sheet metal. It turned out more rigid than I thought. I was going to double up the metal, but in the end it wasn't necessary. So ignore the drawing on the paper, what I built was only half of that.



I was kind of in a hurry to get this mount done so that I could get the dig on, so it didn't turn out perfect, but it worked well after I trimmed it in a few places.





Here it is all mounted up and ready to put back in Danger Dingo. As you can see, I adjusted my linkage so that it takes advantage of the full swing of the servo horn, rather than relying on EPA. This was the easiest way I could get it to work. I didn't want to damage another servo due to my EPA on my radio not working properly. It probably is working, but I'm just too dumb to figure it out.



I ended up flipping my trans...



Here she is mostly buttoned up.



Danger Dingo's arch nemesis Zippy the Zebra stares down Danger Dingo with great envy... he wishes he had a dig unit.



After about 10 minutes of testing I had a failure. The drive shaft set screws, even though they were thread locked in, backed out and allowed the drive shaft to fall off on the rear. This is a bit of an issue. I bought two set screws to replace the pin as the new output on the dig unit didn't have a hole for the pin to go through. I figured that this would hold it in place, boy was I wrong. I skipped talking about cutting down the rear drive shaft. It is super short and if the Dingo wasn't lowered, then they flat out wouldn't work. Any way, I may need to drill a hole in my out put for a pin.

[Cave Dave]

Nice rig, I'm interested to see how your drive lines hold up to the dig.We should run our trucks together some time.

[Optiskate]

Originally Posted by Cave Dave

Nice rig, I'm interested to see how your drive lines hold up to the dig.We should run our trucks together some time.

If I were to have to bet money, I think I'm either going to toast a bearing/race/mess up the trans case or destroy a drive shaft. All of which are things I wish to upgrade. I also have a top secret project in the works. Its been done, but as far as I can tell its not even close to common and might be little known. This thing will wheel awesome when I'm done. There are plans to fix the trans issues and drive shafts as well. Finances wont allow for it at the moment though.

Yeah, we should definitely run our trucks some time. I'm always looking for places to run. I want to walk into Columbia point one of these days and try to find something out there. I've been hitting the park on Gothals lately. Theres also a huge rock pile down buy Howard Amond Park, but I doubt an SCX-10 with a body would do good out there. I haven't ran my Dingo there, just my buddy's AX-10. I'm interested to see what places you know of.

[Optiskate]

Last night we got some freak snow. By freak snow I mean its way too freaking warm for snow right now, yet it snowed a good amount. I decided to take Danger Dingo out to give it it's first taste of snow. Granted a lot of the snow was already melted (like I said, its way too warm for snow right now), but there was still enough to play in.

There's nothing horribly hard or challenging in my back yard, but it was still fun and I got a few pics for you guys.























I tried to drive Danger Dingo back inside under its own power. The back patio was covered in ice. I only managed to get the front end up the step. I couldn't get the back end to climb. I gave it a good shot, but no dice.

[Optiskate]

A little update. My dig unit found its first weak link. Amazingly it wasn't in the trans yet, although I still need to get an aluminum case to help fix the alignment issue. It was in the steering. I actually had ripped the servo stand offs clean off of the Hands Bro CMS kit. Luckily I had some HR aluminum stand offs and thread lock. I also took the time to iron out some steering bugs that were making me lose steering in one direction. With that all fixed, I must say Danger Dingo actually turns quite sharp even without the dig! Sorry, no pics... but I was more focused on just getting it done.

[Optiskate]

We found a new spot to crawl, which we dubbed Hell Rocks. It is absolutely brutal. Its along side a construction site and is essentially made up of a vast pile of concrete that had been broken up and removed. Its all sand covered and the ground is all rock filled sand. So if you dig, you usually high center on a rock. Like I said, it is absolutely brutal. It really showed where my rig could and couldn't follow the AX-10 and the strength and weaknesses of both rigs. We had a lot of fun. Ultimately I spit out my rear drive shaft and after I fixed that, then I ended up with a binding issue in my trans. It would run for a bit and then randomly bind up and stop moving. We played on Goat Head Rocks after Hell Rocks for like 15 minutes. Its a lot less intense and the rock isn't as abusive as the concrete.

From Hell Rocks....










































And yes... I drove out of the nose stand without rolling...





My buddy driving the AX-10.







These ones are from Goat Head Rocks....

















Ax-10 Swallowed whole... in a hole... LOL




Over all we had a great day. The day wasn't breakage free though. My trans binds up randomly pretty bad, which stops the dingo from moving at all. I think I'm going to have to rebuild my trans with metal gears and a metal case to get the dig to line up properly and to solve my binding issues. That plastic trans case is flexed and tweaking. I think that will be the easiest way to solve my issues and end up with a more strong trans.

[Rcc4P]

Cool. That second pic of the ax10 looks like deep space exploration.

[gcarrell2]

nice work on the rig man. love the action shots and the upgrades. hard work paid off!

[Optiskate]

Originally Posted by gcarrell2

nice work on the rig man. love the action shots and the upgrades. hard work paid off!

Thanks man. Its been an adventure getting it to this point for sure. For as little money as I have into it, it all works pretty great. Its super stable. In those pics where its way over sideways it never rolled over. I was able to drive it out. Granted some times I needed the dig to do it because the second the rear end starts pushing it would have flopped, but it was still able to do stuff that was just insane. Most of the times that I wasn't able to make it up something was because of the bumpers or huge Dingo body, not because of anything else. I'm pretty happy aside from the massive binding issue I have now.

[Optiskate]

Originally Posted by Rcc4P

Cool. That second pic of the ax10 looks like deep space exploration.

Yeah, Hell Rocks is more like some insane lunar landscape than anything natural. Its flat out brutal. I thought for sure one of us would break something major. And what better vehicle to conquer it than a lunar rover... I mean insanely built AX-10.

[gcarrell2]

Originally Posted by Optiskate

Thanks man. Its been an adventure getting it to this point for sure. For as little money as I have into it, it all works pretty great. Its super stable. In those pics where its way over sideways it never rolled over. I was able to drive it out. Granted some times I needed the dig to do it because the second the rear end starts pushing it would have flopped, but it was still able to do stuff that was just insane. Most of the times that I wasn't able to make it up something was because of the bumpers or huge Dingo body, not because of anything else. I'm pretty happy aside from the massive binding issue I have now.

no problem bud. im getting more and more excited for my first rig haha. im like a kid in the candy store. a bunch of appealing options just no idea what i really want haha.

[Optiskate]

Originally Posted by gcarrell2

no problem bud. im getting more and more excited for my first rig haha. im like a kid in the candy store. a bunch of appealing options just no idea what i really want haha.

I know what you mean. There are so many parts out there and they're all tempting. The most expensive mod I have on Danger Dingo is the CMS and 3 link w/panhard. The second most expensive was the dig unit, which has been and still remains a huge pain in my ass. A vanquish unit would have been a better option, but at twice the cost there was no way in hell I was going to spend that much money. I now know its worth it. I didn't count the motor or ESC as mods as I needed them to get it running, but they were spendy too.

I think that my best mods were free or nearly free though. The zip tie limiting strap, weight relocation, servo box water proofing, ect where much more useful mods that really didn't cost me anything. I can tell you without a doubt that my dingo wouldn't be nearly as capable without some of those mods. Some of them are personal preference and some of the mods wouldn't work with a different driving style, but they work great for me. So before you blow tons of cash, my one piece of advice is to just drive it and try out some of the free/cheap mods that you can do and see if you can get an more enjoyment and capability out of it. It'll give you more time to figure out what your money would be better spend on.