Steering mods - Panard

[Dbx]

I've just got the chassis together of my Spawn Kit. (I'm coming from a buggy and vaterra twin hammers).
I was pretty shocked by the steering. I'm not impressed by the lack of ackerman angle, and the flexi link bar is just silly - so this has been my first mod:


I've used 4mm steel rod, which seems stiff enough, and has a nice scale air about it.

I'm pondering doing a 3d printed chassis mounted servo kit with a panhard link. I like the aesthetic of this, but is there any practical benefit? I'm not super keen to move mass upwards.

[msrace]

Most off the shelf Panhard kits are lacking much design at best. Why not take advantage of keeping the weight on the front axle? There are a few custom rigs with good tracbar design, but they are few and far between.

[Soldat Vaillant]

Originally Posted by Dbx

I'm pondering doing a 3d printed chassis mounted servo kit with a panhard link. I like the aesthetic of this, but is there any practical benefit?

No, no practical reason to run the CMS.

[allanon1965]

My CMS keeps my servo up out of the junk it would catch if it were on the axle, I can run through shallow water without getting it wet, I run in snow in the winter time and the servo doesn't act like a plow..I don't get twigs and crap caught in the servo travel arc since it is not on the axle...plus I like the fact it is more scale looking. Performance versus axle mounted is in the opinion of the owner, and we all know what opinions are like, even mine.

I feel it performs better for my style of driving and I have absolutely no bump steer. When it is set up properly, it will not have bump steer. I am using the Vanquish CMS parts for mine.

[altd896]

CMS is mainly an aesthetic change, it more closely replicates an OEM style arrangement with steering box etc. It does however limit you to running a 3 link, the panhard does introduce some axle swing as the suspension cycles & the servo does add some (granted not a lot) weight onto the chassis which can be undesirable.
The sevo on axle, while being big & bulky & not especially visually appealing (black servo hides much better) it does replicate the function of a full hydraulic steering system.
There are pros & cons to both & there's no strictly right answer.

If I may make a suggestion, if you roll the servo over so the arm is on the right & the drag link goes to the left knuckle you should be able to tuck the link end behind the servo arm without it hitting the diff cover.
This will allow you to rotate the tie rod up a bit also which will pull it in closer to the axle, help keep it from being the beaten on so much.

[msrace]

A panhard not setup properly will create tire lift and suspension bind, not bind like mechanical, bind as in torque bind. Like I said, I have seen only a very few, custom setups that actually have the panhard bar installed correctly. It is extremely difficult to set it up correctly using any of the off the shelf axle trusses and link mounts. The stock 4 link will outperform any bolt on 3 link kit currently available for these. And a cms without a panhard will give you severe bump steer. It's not an opinion, it's suspension geometry.

[allanon1965]

Originally Posted by msrace

A panhard not setup properly will create tire lift and suspension bind, not bind like mechanical, bind as in torque bind. Like I said, I have seen only a very few, custom setups that actually have the panhard bar installed correctly. It is extremely difficult to set it up correctly using any of the off the shelf axle trusses and link mounts. The stock 4 link will outperform any bolt on 3 link kit currently available for these. And a cms without a panhard will give you severe bump steer. It's not an opinion, it's suspension geometry.

we will have to agree to disagree on this statement: "It is extremely difficult to set it up correctly using any of the off the shelf axle trusses and link mounts."

that may be true of some, Level 3 comes to mind, the VP set up is very easy to install, tune and use... for the AR60 axles. Now for the scx10, it would be the hands bros, or rc4wd cms...very well designed and works like it should. locked up rc also has made a cms for the scx10 that looks like its very well thought out but I havent used it so I cant say if it works as good as it looks. Knowing LURC, I would venture to say it will work well.

[msrace]

The VP may be easy to install, but that is a perfect example of a poorly designed Panhard setup. The hands Bros isn't any better. Those 2 examples are exactly what I am talking about.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[allanon1965]

well what exactly is the issue? mine all work very well... from a suspension geometry point of view, i see no issues with them. I aligned suspensions for over 30 years and the scx10 cms is very close in form and function to the jeeps with track bars...take off the track bar and they act just like the cms without a panhard bar...

[msrace]

A properly placed Panhard will be parallel with both the axle and the frame at ride height. Also, width of the bar is also important. You can use a 3 link calculator to determine the best setup, but those guidelines I mentioned are the best place to start.
Here is a poor design, note the drivers tire in the air held up by torque bind for no other reason.


Here is a properly designed Panhard, note how wide it is and the extent he went with the mounts to achieve it.


Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by msrace

A properly placed Panhard will be parallel with both the axle and the frame at ride height. Also, width of the bar is also important. You can use a 3 link calculator to determine the best setup, but those guidelines I mentioned are the best place to start.
Here is a poor design, note the drivers tire in the air held up by torque bind for no other reason.

While I personally think the only thing dumber than cms on a wraith is the apparent fad of cms on a Bomber both of which are rock buggies that have no reason to run that junk in the real world that pic doesn't show what you think it does.

The suspension is fully unloaded since the rig is trying to climb a steep obstacle. It has nothing to do with torque at all just gravity. Although I do think it's odd to run full hydro steering with a 3 link but I guess when you're already balls deep in a fully polished dana 30 with RCV axles.

[allanon1965]

well dumb or not, mine works very well and I have an excellent turning radius to boot..earned me a third place finish at my first ever comp last year. The rig is much better that the driver for sure..

[WHITE-TRASH]

Cool so your chassis mounted servo gives you almost as much steering as an axle mounted servo. Good job taking 3rd with an inferior setup.

[Dbx]

Now now - play nicely children.

I think i'll maybe leave the panhard idea alone for a bit. My number one priority will be dropping the battery down behind the transmission, and lowering the ride height. I found i needed to do this with the twin hammers to help prevent roll-over, so i'm probably going to hate the wraith in stock setup.

I really just need to get out and run it this weekend!

[WHITE-TRASH]

In stock form the wraith is an absolute turd. Top heavy as Dolly Parton on stilts on its best day but with some work they aren't terrible. You're right, get out and run it and fix whatever issues you find and have fun.

[allanon1965]

Hey, no big deal, my wraith has more steering now than it had stock...and as i learn to be a better driver, next time it will be first place

The turn and drop pic is my favorite as my rig was the only one who could make the turn off the bridge in one shot, everyone else either had to back up and hit it again, or they rolled over trying

[msrace]

White trash I was trying to find a good picture, on that climb, it was holding the drivers up under power, he must have caught it after I let off the gas. It would unload and drop. And only the outers are d30, it's a spider 9 with a true hi9 center. Couldn't afford much more lol. 3 link in the front on a full size has more to do with space around the motor, a problem that doesn't exist on an rc.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[allanon1965]

Originally Posted by Dbx

Now now - play nicely children.

I think i'll maybe leave the panhard idea alone for a bit. My number one priority will be dropping the battery down behind the transmission, and lowering the ride height. I found i needed to do this with the twin hammers to help prevent roll-over, so i'm probably going to hate the wraith in stock setup.

I really just need to get out and run it this weekend!

Agreed, my solutions for my terrain may not work for yours. My trailing arms, steering and other mods i have done make my wraith an extremely capable rig. It is not prone to flipping over, it crawls extremely well and basically is a point and shoot rig. You point it where you want to go and pull the trigger.

The object is to make it work for your situation, through testing and tuning, and most importantly to have FUN!

People dont like my setup, so what..works for me and in the end that is all that matters

[valheru]

Originally Posted by allanon1965

People dont like my setup, so what..works for me and in the end that is all that matters

And in the words of the wise:

Give 20 people the same chassis & axles, & they'll build a crawler 20 different ways.

[msrace]

Some of the comments on this thread are funny. If someone posts asking about a particular product that is made by a company with a poor reputation, everyone is quick to jump all over it. The fact that VP makes a product with a poor design, people are quick to defend it cause of the company. There are inherent flaws in its design but nobody wants to believe it. First off the upper links run into the Panhard cause of its placement, limiting uptravel that the original 4 link has. Secondly the Panhard is not parallel to the axle at ride height, and never will be without modification, which creates suspension bind. Again another aspect the original 4 link does not do. So why do people not only not have a problem with it, but defend it. It's cut and dry, you will lose performance by going to a poor designed 3 link period. I'm sure some of you may think I'm being a dk about this, but I'm trying to educate those looking to learn, before spending their time and money on something that will take away performance of their rig.