RCCrawler Forums

grover · 10-04-2005, 04:23 PM

This is a poll for members of the Phoenix Area Rock Crawlers, on the structure of our first point series. Many other clubs accross the country have already implemented points series to encourage more consistent participation. As a club, let us now decide on the priorities we most value in the formation of the statistical model we choose.

The first model proposed is the most simplistic and quickest to apply. The overall event winner is awarded 100 series points and each driver below is awarded 5 points less incrementally until twentieth place.

Sample from PBB8 and PBB9

Kevin.......PBB8..100................PBB9..100.... .............200
Chad...................85......................... ...95.................180
Jay......................90....................... .....90.................180
Mike....................95........................ ....70.................165
.
.
.

The second model is an expanded version of the first designed to encourage a strong performance on the first stage and to give slightly more weight to larger events. Because of the inherent disadvantage of running first, bonus points are awarded to the drivers who excel on the first stage. Low score on the first stage gets points equal to the number of competitors he scored under. E.G. Elevan competitors run the first stage, the competitor who incured the lowest number of penalties is awarded 10 bonus points the second would recieve 9...

Sample from PBB8 and PBB9

Kevin.......PBB8 100+8............PBB9 100+8............216
Chad...................85+4....................... ..95+10.........194
Jay......................90+7..................... .....90+6..........193
Mike....................95+6...................... ....70+4..........175
.
.
.

The second aspect of the series to vote on is the duration of our first series that best meets the needs of our club. The first lenth to choose from is a full series E.G. a winter series that would last aproximately six months. The second would be a mini series only about three events long that would allow us to start fresh at the begining of the '06 season. Sorry for misspelling mini...Grover.

kevinlongisland · 10-05-2005, 08:33 AM

What do you guys think about letting two people use one vehicle to compete? this would allow more people to participate.

one2crawl · 10-05-2005, 08:42 AM

sounds good.I have no problem with multiple drivers on same truck.

azvader · 10-05-2005, 09:44 AM

That sounds great. Everyone has a different driving style reguardless of the truck. Plus, it gives new people without trucks a chance to try out crawling.

As for the points series idea, WAY TO GO CHAD !!!!! Awesome idea, I think this will add to the comps and give extra insentive to attend all the events.

grover · 10-05-2005, 10:08 AM

I agree, let them run!

The other option that has come up in conversation is that of first round running order. Once the series has started we can run in the order that we stand in the series, and obviously anyone new would run after randomly. This seems like an alternative to the more complicated scoring offered in option two. What does everyone think?

bktoys · 10-05-2005, 07:28 PM

i love the idea just to help out a newcomer get into rock crawling

cars69 · 10-05-2005, 10:46 PM

A well built truck has a lot to do with how good you drive a course. Base on that it will be less frustrating to a new comer to drive a better built truck. Sharing a truck can give someone new a chance to compete without the frustration.With no worry of his first build not working like it did in his back yard. They will have more fun. This can only encourage them to design and build a better truck for them-selves to compete with.
In some cases our trucks are down and not ready when a comp comes around. The result is a no show for that person. Sharing trucks would still allow them to compete by using someones truck. This is a good idea.

RICK

kevinlongisland · 10-05-2005, 11:38 PM

we can thank the nor-cal group for the idea of allowing multiple people to drive one rig. don't know who started it in the nor-cal group, but that's who i got the idea from.

kevinlongisland · 10-08-2005, 09:43 AM

another thing i think we should do with the point series is have a certain number of events that don't count or can be missed. Say we do a year series, 12 events. Only 10 count. So either your lowest 2 scores drop of you can miss 2 events. I think we need to do something like this because people can't always make an event because of a wedding or vacation or something like that.

roktoy · 10-09-2005, 11:18 PM

I'm game on multiple drivers to get more people interested too.
Jay

grover · 10-23-2005, 05:59 PM

Unlimited:
Ken 105
Kevin 104
Jay 91
Rick 91
Ron 85
Chad 83
Brian 72
Mike 70
Tony 62
Diego 58
Rich 58

2.2:
Kris 102
Mitch 99
Mike 95
Eric 88
Josh 81
Chad 75

grover · 10-24-2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grover

Unlimited:
Ken 105
Kevin 104
Jay 91
Rick 91
Ron 85
Chad 83
Brian 72
Mike 70
Tony 62
Diego 58
Rich 58

2.2:
Kris 102
Mitch 99
Mike 95
Eric 88
Josh 81
Chad 75

Just for comparison had we used the simpler statistical model:
Unlimited w/o bonus:
Kevin 100
Ken 95
Jay 90
Rick 85
Ron 80
Chad 75
Mike 70
Brian 65
Tony 60
Diego 55
Rich 50

2.2 w/o bonus:
Kris 100
Mitch 95
Mike 90
Eric 85
Josh 80
Chad 75

roktoy · 10-24-2005, 12:14 PM

For some reason I still don't quite get the second scoring model ???
Jay

grover · 10-24-2005, 07:17 PM

The second statisyical model gives a slightly higher weight to events with more drivers. It makes sence to give a guy credit for how many drivers he scored better than at an event. If you are at an event like we had a while back with only one 2.2 truck and you win by completing the course, should you really be awarded the same 100 points as they guy who won at an event like we just had, with over ten drivers?

The model has a very small weight on the amount awarded for each bonus at small events and slightly more as the events get larger which seems apropriate.
The model has been quick to impliment and the math is easy enough to do in your head with out a calculator. The only percieved downside is the bias it has on the first round score. This bias was chosen initially to work the "series advantage". Which is to say those in the hunt want the series to give them an advantage on those that are at the top of the points. keeping the scores tight and encouraging the perseption that you could climb to the top is exactly what a series is all about...getting the drivers to turn out time after time consistently.

grover · 10-24-2005, 07:34 PM

Unlimited:
Ken 105 Ken scored 95 and on round one bettered 10 drivers so 10 point bonus
Kevin 104 Kevin scored 100 and on round one bettered 4 drivers so 4 point bonus
Jay 91 Jay scored 90 and on round one bettered 1 driver so 1 point bonus
Rick 91 Rick scored 85 and on round one bettered 6 drivers so 6 point bonus
Ron 85 Ron scored 80 and on round one bettered 5 drivers so 5 point bonus
Chad 83 Chad scored 75 and on round one bettered 8 drivers so 8 point bonus
Brian 72 Brian scored 65 and on round one bettered 7 drivers so 7 point bonus
Mike 70 Mike scored 70 no bonus
Tony 62 Tony scored 60 and on round one bettered 2 drivers so 2 point bonus
Diego 58 Diego scored 55 and on round one bettered 3 drivers so 3 point bonus
Rich 58 Rich scored 50 and on round one bettered 8 drivers so 8 point bonus

2.2:
Kris 102 Kris scored 100 and on round one bettered 2 drivers so 2 point bonus
Mitch 99 Mitch scored 95 and on round one bettered 4 drivers so 4 point bonus
Mike 95 Mike scored 90 and on round one bettered 5 drivers so 5 point bonus
Eric 88 Eric scored 85 and on round one bettered 3 drivers so 3 point bonus
Josh 81 Josh scored 80 and on round one bettered 1 driver so 1 point bonus
Chad 75

roktoy · 10-24-2005, 11:28 PM

Ok, I follow the bonus points increase based on a larger number at the event.

Why do you "encourage" a strong performance on the first stage ?

[QUOTE=grover]...... Because of the inherent disadvantage of running first, bonus points are awarded to the drivers who excel on the first stage.QUOTE]

This confuses me......I'll use myself as an example because I know what I did this past Sunday. I went first on round one by chance and got the next to worst score. How does my going first in this case afford bonus points to others who saw my mistakes or lines.

Should there be winners choice starting grid or previous winners go first ?

I guess the round one basis for the bonus still confuses me.....duh? :-)

grover · 10-25-2005, 08:11 AM

The series points leader will be driving first on stage one and have the disadvantage that you are discribing. This creates an inherint advantage for all the drivers that fallow. That is exactly why it works.

If we look at a new series and say that the first round random start should not have any bonous points because we need none, cool. But at the second event when Kevin has to step up and drive first anyone waiting and watching would get the advantage that keeps the numbers tight.

The next series will be longer and should have one or two events that any person could miss or throw out. So if we see six large events and one or two small events maybe we will see the importance of the bonus come more into play.

I have seen the bonus work and just because I am talking specifically to you "jay" and I know my dad wont take offence I will use your numbers as an example. Ok Jay you have been a veteran driver in the hunt for the top positions for as long as I have been around, and you drove early on stage one as you would in a series if you were towards the top of the rankings bonus points or not. My father has only attended a few events and is just getting used the driving and the scoring system we use. Look at the equalizing effect of combined scoring bonus and driving later in the rotation!

Good catch on the first event round one bonus, Jay...now we will see on the next two rounds if the bonus structure can keep the competition tight.

roktoy · 10-25-2005, 08:24 AM

Sounds good...all makes better sense now.

As you said, should keep the comp tighter and the series more interesting.

Thanks.
Jay

grover · 11-21-2005, 10:45 AM

2.2 Series Points
1-Mike-195
2-Josh-172
3-Kris-102*
4-Mitch-99*
5-Don-92*
6-Eric-88*
7-Dan-83*
8-Chad-75*

Unlimited Series Points
1-Kevin-213
2-Ron-187
3-Chad-171
4-Mike-164
4-Jay-164
6-Tony-146
7-brian-131
8-Ken-105*
9-Rick-91*
10-shirtbusjeep-60*
11-Rich-58*
11-Diego-58*

*ONLY ATTENDED ONE EVENT

cowboyrc · 11-22-2005, 07:49 AM

Chad, on Pbb 10 you have the positions seperated by 5 pts. and on Pbb 11 they are seperated by 10 pts. Which are we using?, Or am I just not getting it?

View Poll Results: PARC points series choose scoring and duration.
!00 points first 5 points less each place.	2	20.00%
100 points first 5 points less each place plus bonus on first stage.	6	60.00%
Full winter series aprox. 6 months	5	50.00%
Minin series 2-3 months	5	50.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

10-04-2005, 04:23 PM	#1
grover Rock Crawler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tumwater Posts: 910	Phoenix Area Rock Crawlers points series poll This is a poll for members of the Phoenix Area Rock Crawlers, on the structure of our first point series. Many other clubs accross the country have already implemented points series to encourage more consistent participation. As a club, let us now decide on the priorities we most value in the formation of the statistical model we choose. The first model proposed is the most simplistic and quickest to apply. The overall event winner is awarded 100 series points and each driver below is awarded 5 points less incrementally until twentieth place. Sample from PBB8 and PBB9 Kevin.......PBB8..100................PBB9..100.... .............200 Chad...................85......................... ...95.................180 Jay......................90....................... .....90.................180 Mike....................95........................ ....70.................165 . . . The second model is an expanded version of the first designed to encourage a strong performance on the first stage and to give slightly more weight to larger events. Because of the inherent disadvantage of running first, bonus points are awarded to the drivers who excel on the first stage. Low score on the first stage gets points equal to the number of competitors he scored under. E.G. Elevan competitors run the first stage, the competitor who incured the lowest number of penalties is awarded 10 bonus points the second would recieve 9... Sample from PBB8 and PBB9 Kevin.......PBB8 100+8............PBB9 100+8............216 Chad...................85+4....................... ..95+10.........194 Jay......................90+7..................... .....90+6..........193 Mike....................95+6...................... ....70+4..........175 . . . The second aspect of the series to vote on is the duration of our first series that best meets the needs of our club. The first lenth to choose from is a full series E.G. a winter series that would last aproximately six months. The second would be a mini series only about three events long that would allow us to start fresh at the begining of the '06 season. Sorry for misspelling mini...Grover. Last edited by grover; 10-04-2005 at 04:56 PM.

10-05-2005, 09:44 AM	#4
azvader Quarry Creeper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Dark Side Posts: 397	Why not That sounds great. Everyone has a different driving style reguardless of the truck. Plus, it gives new people without trucks a chance to try out crawling. As for the points series idea, WAY TO GO CHAD !!!!! Awesome idea, I think this will add to the comps and give extra insentive to attend all the events. Last edited by azvader; 10-05-2005 at 11:38 PM. Reason: Almost Forgot

10-05-2005, 10:08 AM	#5
grover Rock Crawler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tumwater Posts: 910	I agree, let them run! The other option that has come up in conversation is that of first round running order. Once the series has started we can run in the order that we stand in the series, and obviously anyone new would run after randomly. This seems like an alternative to the more complicated scoring offered in option two. What does everyone think? Last edited by grover; 10-05-2005 at 04:15 PM.

10-05-2005, 10:46 PM	#7
cars69 RCC Addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MESA, AZ. Posts: 1,043	A well built truck has a lot to do with how good you drive a course. Base on that it will be less frustrating to a new comer to drive a better built truck. Sharing a truck can give someone new a chance to compete without the frustration.With no worry of his first build not working like it did in his back yard. They will have more fun. This can only encourage them to design and build a better truck for them-selves to compete with. In some cases our trucks are down and not ready when a comp comes around. The result is a no show for that person. Sharing trucks would still allow them to compete by using someones truck. This is a good idea. RICK Last edited by cars69; 10-06-2005 at 08:43 AM.

10-05-2005, 08:33 AM	#2
kevinlongisland The Wheels Keep Turning Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 2,831	What do you guys think about letting two people use one vehicle to compete? this would allow more people to participate.

10-05-2005, 08:42 AM	#3
one2crawl Rock Stacker Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: mesa Posts: 65	sounds good.I have no problem with multiple drivers on same truck.

10-05-2005, 07:28 PM	#6
bktoys Quarry Creeper Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Apache Junction Posts: 305	i love the idea just to help out a newcomer get into rock crawling

10-05-2005, 11:38 PM	#8
kevinlongisland The Wheels Keep Turning Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 2,831	we can thank the nor-cal group for the idea of allowing multiple people to drive one rig. don't know who started it in the nor-cal group, but that's who i got the idea from.

10-08-2005, 09:43 AM	#9
kevinlongisland The Wheels Keep Turning Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 2,831	another thing i think we should do with the point series is have a certain number of events that don't count or can be missed. Say we do a year series, 12 events. Only 10 count. So either your lowest 2 scores drop of you can miss 2 events. I think we need to do something like this because people can't always make an event because of a wedding or vacation or something like that.

10-09-2005, 11:18 PM	#10
roktoy Dirt Addict Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stumblin' thru the parking lot of an invisible 7-Eleven Posts: 1,053	I'm game on multiple drivers to get more people interested too. Jay

10-23-2005, 05:59 PM	#11
grover Rock Crawler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tumwater Posts: 910	Points series results for PBB10 Unlimited: Ken 105 Kevin 104 Jay 91 Rick 91 Ron 85 Chad 83 Brian 72 Mike 70 Tony 62 Diego 58 Rich 58 2.2: Kris 102 Mitch 99 Mike 95 Eric 88 Josh 81 Chad 75

10-24-2005, 12:14 PM	#13
roktoy Dirt Addict Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stumblin' thru the parking lot of an invisible 7-Eleven Posts: 1,053	For some reason I still don't quite get the second scoring model ??? Jay

10-24-2005, 07:17 PM	#14
grover Rock Crawler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tumwater Posts: 910	The second statisyical model gives a slightly higher weight to events with more drivers. It makes sence to give a guy credit for how many drivers he scored better than at an event. If you are at an event like we had a while back with only one 2.2 truck and you win by completing the course, should you really be awarded the same 100 points as they guy who won at an event like we just had, with over ten drivers? The model has a very small weight on the amount awarded for each bonus at small events and slightly more as the events get larger which seems apropriate. The model has been quick to impliment and the math is easy enough to do in your head with out a calculator. The only percieved downside is the bias it has on the first round score. This bias was chosen initially to work the "series advantage". Which is to say those in the hunt want the series to give them an advantage on those that are at the top of the points. keeping the scores tight and encouraging the perseption that you could climb to the top is exactly what a series is all about...getting the drivers to turn out time after time consistently.

10-24-2005, 07:34 PM	#15
grover Rock Crawler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tumwater Posts: 910	This brake down may also help clarify? Unlimited: Ken 105 Ken scored 95 and on round one bettered 10 drivers so 10 point bonus Kevin 104 Kevin scored 100 and on round one bettered 4 drivers so 4 point bonus Jay 91 Jay scored 90 and on round one bettered 1 driver so 1 point bonus Rick 91 Rick scored 85 and on round one bettered 6 drivers so 6 point bonus Ron 85 Ron scored 80 and on round one bettered 5 drivers so 5 point bonus Chad 83 Chad scored 75 and on round one bettered 8 drivers so 8 point bonus Brian 72 Brian scored 65 and on round one bettered 7 drivers so 7 point bonus Mike 70 Mike scored 70 no bonus Tony 62 Tony scored 60 and on round one bettered 2 drivers so 2 point bonus Diego 58 Diego scored 55 and on round one bettered 3 drivers so 3 point bonus Rich 58 Rich scored 50 and on round one bettered 8 drivers so 8 point bonus 2.2: Kris 102 Kris scored 100 and on round one bettered 2 drivers so 2 point bonus Mitch 99 Mitch scored 95 and on round one bettered 4 drivers so 4 point bonus Mike 95 Mike scored 90 and on round one bettered 5 drivers so 5 point bonus Eric 88 Eric scored 85 and on round one bettered 3 drivers so 3 point bonus Josh 81 Josh scored 80 and on round one bettered 1 driver so 1 point bonus Chad 75

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10-24-2005, 11:28 PM	#16
roktoy Dirt Addict Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stumblin' thru the parking lot of an invisible 7-Eleven Posts: 1,053	Ok, I follow the bonus points increase based on a larger number at the event. Why do you "encourage" a strong performance on the first stage ? [QUOTE=grover]...... Because of the inherent disadvantage of running first, bonus points are awarded to the drivers who excel on the first stage.QUOTE] This confuses me......I'll use myself as an example because I know what I did this past Sunday. I went first on round one by chance and got the next to worst score. How does my going first in this case afford bonus points to others who saw my mistakes or lines. Should there be winners choice starting grid or previous winners go first ? I guess the round one basis for the bonus still confuses me.....duh? :-)

10-25-2005, 08:11 AM	#17
grover Rock Crawler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tumwater Posts: 910	This series is a test of the points structure keep the questions coming The series points leader will be driving first on stage one and have the disadvantage that you are discribing. This creates an inherint advantage for all the drivers that fallow. That is exactly why it works. If we look at a new series and say that the first round random start should not have any bonous points because we need none, cool. But at the second event when Kevin has to step up and drive first anyone waiting and watching would get the advantage that keeps the numbers tight. The next series will be longer and should have one or two events that any person could miss or throw out. So if we see six large events and one or two small events maybe we will see the importance of the bonus come more into play. I have seen the bonus work and just because I am talking specifically to you "jay" and I know my dad wont take offence I will use your numbers as an example. Ok Jay you have been a veteran driver in the hunt for the top positions for as long as I have been around, and you drove early on stage one as you would in a series if you were towards the top of the rankings bonus points or not. My father has only attended a few events and is just getting used the driving and the scoring system we use. Look at the equalizing effect of combined scoring bonus and driving later in the rotation! Good catch on the first event round one bonus, Jay...now we will see on the next two rounds if the bonus structure can keep the competition tight.

10-25-2005, 08:24 AM	#18
roktoy Dirt Addict Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stumblin' thru the parking lot of an invisible 7-Eleven Posts: 1,053	Sounds good...all makes better sense now. As you said, should keep the comp tighter and the series more interesting. Thanks. Jay

11-21-2005, 10:45 AM	#19
grover Rock Crawler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tumwater Posts: 910	Pbb11 2.2 Series Points 1-Mike-195 2-Josh-172 3-Kris-102* 4-Mitch-99* 5-Don-92* 6-Eric-88* 7-Dan-83* 8-Chad-75* Unlimited Series Points 1-Kevin-213 2-Ron-187 3-Chad-171 4-Mike-164 4-Jay-164 6-Tony-146 7-brian-131 8-Ken-105* 9-Rick-91* 10-shirtbusjeep-60* 11-Rich-58* 11-Diego-58* ONLY ATTENDED ONE EVENT Last edited by grover; 11-22-2005 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Changed to 5 point spread*

11-22-2005, 07:49 AM	#20
cowboyrc Pebble Pounder Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Peoria, AZ Posts: 173	Chad, on Pbb 10 you have the positions seperated by 5 pts. and on Pbb 11 they are seperated by 10 pts. Which are we using?, Or am I just not getting it?

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Thread: Phoenix Area Rock Crawlers points series poll