Yet Another Rock Force Build

[stampedeproject]

As always Jason gets to steal the thunder as he apparently has an "arrangement" with UPS to deliver his packages at least 2-3 days before mine... sigh. I thought I would go ahead an walk through the build anyway, since we are all information starved on the new Kyosho Rock Force Crawler and I might provide a little different info that everyone else posting thier builds.

Ahh I love kits.


Classic Kyosho Black Box of intrigue


Less parts than I imagined


The out of box parts on display




...and as you can see the worm gear set peering out from the bag.

[HiloDB1]

Awsome another one I cant wait for my kit to get here.

[dave56bug]

Can't wait to see it built. Typical Kyosho kit, no "extras" like, shock oil, grease for the gears, threadlock, and there is a lot of metal to metal fasteners so some threadlock would have been nice.

[stampedeproject]

I got the entire chassis build last night with the exception of shocks, so I will post all the step-by-step photos from the build either tonight or this weekend.

[stampedeproject]

Kyosho Rock Force Rock Crawler Build

Here is a start I will keep the build here on my sit updated.
11-20-08 - Today I received a very exciting box in the mail today... the new and much touted Kyosho Rock Force Rock Crawler. I thought I would provide some initial impressions and because the Rock Force build can be a little tricky if you are not a direction reader, I thought a walk through the build would be helpful.

Typical Kyosho black box of intrigue.

Surprisingly the box is pretty empty. Kinda initially makes you think that something is missing in the box.

The pile of parts pulled out from the box... still doesn't look like much.

The infamous worm gears peering from the plastic bags.

Plenty of stickers for the body that will make an easy paint, stick and drive a fast process.

Not the highest quality tools, but nice they were included.

Damn, worm gears rock. These are SERIOUSLY heavy duty. In fact all the parts on the Kyosho Rock Force look like they were pulled from 1/8th - 1/5th scale. For all the guys whining that they want a crawler build on 1/8th scale parts... this is it.

More beef carried by massive bearings.

This is where you need to start paying attention to directions. If I had one piece of advice for assembly it is RTFM (Read the Freaking Manual). You, like I did, will find yourself re-doing things if you jump ahead and think you can skip the instructions.

Lower worn gear installed with super heavy 1/8th scale dog bone yokes.


Everything on this thing is massive, from the pivot balls to the link mounts.

Looks like someone stole these right off a 1/8th buggy... bearings and all. The kit includes VERY nice and huge wheel nuts. Just make sure you are paying attention on install, there are left and right specific hubs.

Also pay attention to where all the screws go.

Make sure you screw in the short side's pivot ball before attaching the lower link mount, otherwise it's a bit tight fit to get the screw in. One thing I was a little concerned with was the open driveshaft where the dogbones enter. Traverse one river and the unsealed steel internals of the drive system are likely to be rusty in no time. I think at the very least a couple super large o-rings or foam pieces are needed to keep the crap out.

The 1/8" steel steering links are plenty beefy, however in light of all the other huge massive heft of all the other parts, the steering links end up looking wimpy. Sure would have rather seen these as big beefy aluminum links.

Front and rear Axles assembled.

Wow... again enormous links that are huge compared to.... well any other link I have on any other RC. All the links are coded with ribs (none, 1, 2, 3) to let you know which is which and what goes where... nice touch. The instructions even tell you which directions the pivot ball should face. I doubt a ball will ever come loose as I have to use a set of channel lock pliers to get the pivot balls seated in the link ends.

Here is the beginning of the "transmission" what little of it there is.

Spur gear assembled to carrier.

Introducing the worlds simplest transmission... all the gear reduction is in the worm gear folks.

Chassis assembled - again follow the directions. I had a couple re-dues because I got ahead of myself. BEWARE the stamped edges of my chassis were razor sharp and had to be hit with a little fine sandpaper. Don't believe me? My bloody index finger has the final winning argument.

Kyosho should make these shaft available separately NOW. I want these on every vehicle I own that I can make them fit on. A floating hex shaft married to the shaft ends all hidden under a floating aluminum tube.

The grub screws are even... you guessed it, huge.

Getting the chassis all linked up.

A REAL aluminum skid plate.

No cheap ass plastic shock pistons here. Solid machined brass pistons held on with a nut.

The shock bodies are again huge, but I was a little disappointed with the fast they were plastic, but we can't have everything. They did come with o-ringed threaded shock adjustment rings that are secure and will hold position.

The instructions say to use 150# oil... er I don't have my European weight conversion table handy. Here in the states go with 25-35 wt oil, anything thicker is toooooo sloooooooowwwwwww.


DONE!! Ready for electrics and a body.

I'll keep you updated on my progress.

[2JSC]

Awesome pictures... Whats the hieght on the stock tires? Width of axles?

[stampedeproject]

I don't want anyone saying I am the "everything is awesome" guy, here are the RANTS I have so far. Some are easy fixes others we will see once we get this rig tested.

OK, I haven't so much as mounted a motor on the thing and I see some potential shortcomings.

The Chassis is a little ghetto compared to everything else on the truck. No need for a Ginsu knife, my chassis has such sharp edges that it cut my finger just taking it out of the plastic. Hope it works well.

The drivetrain needs some sealing/o-ring/foam to keep the crap out.

Articulation is REALLY limited. You maybe, maybe have 40 degrees of articulation. Again haven't even dropped a motor in it, so it could work great.

Hmmmm.... someone has probably posted this already... but the body isn't legal. Gotta be 5" wide and it's 4" and the body is also every so slightly and questionably at 12.5" in length. Guess you won't be competing with the stock body. A Pro-Line Rock Star would probably look good on this.

No freaking shock oil included..... ARGH. I am thinking that $2 bottle of shock oil could have been included.

Tires - No foams, short profile and circa 1980s thread pattern, but they are sticky.

Ain't no using all those great Eritex, DNA, and Mayhem beadlocks, we have yet another offset to deal with folks and it's DEEP.

Setting up the rear lock links as per the instructions give you some wicked toe in on the rear. The rock ends will have to be trimmed to make the rear end line up correctly. - EDITED - RTFM myself Page 13 in the manual gotta shorten the links first it says.

Go ahead an just throw away your high turn motors, because I can see that the gear reduction just by turning by hand is so high that a 35T-55T motor will be annoyingly slow. The good news is that you can finally use all those stock motors you have left over.

Rants aside this is a VERY nice kit. Will it stomp the Axial... probably not in stock form, but with factory dig and the potentially stunning durability you may win just because you WERE able to finish without breaking something.

[stampedeproject]

Originally Posted by 2JSC

Awesome pictures... Whats the hieght on the stock tires? Width of axles?

Axle width 8 7/8" to the outside of the hexes.

Tires are 4 7/8" tall and 2 1/4" wide

Overall width with the tires is about 11 1/4"

[killjoyken]

I'll stop my own build to add some complaints of my own.

First, my chassis plates were a little sharp from being stamped out, but not sharp enough to cut me. (then again, I'm a machinist and fabricator so my skin is used to sharp metal) For me, I just think the chassis plates are more complicated than they need to be with lots of unnecessary bracing in the front which makes the chassis seem bulky. The SWX chassis is tiny compared to this thing.

Second, (and you'll find this out when you finally bolt up that motor) is that the motor plate is too thin and only supported on the spur side so it flexes with very little pressure. It actually flexes more than a stock Axial plate. My first mod on Monday will be an 1/8" motor plate.

Third, the servo only uses 2 screws to hold it. One good whack and the servo ears will probably snap. There's my second mod.

Fourth, the phillips screws are even softer than Tamiya's. No biggie, I'll replace them later.

Fifth, the 4 holes in the skid plate weren't countersunk enough. Easy fix with a 90 deg countersink. I'll eventually make a one piece lower brace and skid plate.

Other than that, I'm liking the rig although I won't really know until I hit the rocks tomorrow.

BTW, nice build!

PS. I don't want to come off sounding like I'm bashing Kyosho. I'm just saying that for a kit that I just spent $400 on, I was expecting a little more. Considering the price of the kit, little things like shock oil, machine thread hex hardware and a thicker motor plate aren't too much to ask for. The only reason I'm not complaining about the wheels and tires is because I'm planning on using them on another project. So to Kyosho: Good job, but it still needs a little work...then again, what truck doesn't?

[stampedeproject]

Thanks killjoyken...

"used to steel" - I do a fair amount of fabrication and am used to sharp metal, just didn't expect it on this chassis.

Agreed Rants aside this thing is very good quality and should be nearly indestructible and it looks very scale.

RAVES

Typical Kyosho quality which means it's going to be very durable.

Way overbuilt - Since I seem to find a way break everything, the construction should lead to long term durability.

Worm gear - the benefits are obvious, more strength and it's not going to freewheel down hills

Drive system - pretty tight drive system. Initially, in stock form, it seems to bee significantly tighter with less play than the AX10. The major play is from the pin to hex fit, but that can be fixed easily.

Stock Battery placement - Very low placement in the chassis, however we all know a small pack even lower.

Formula One Off Road style front 4-link with cross brace should nearly elminate torque twist working with the rear 4-link.

100 points for originality. I hate seeing a ohh ohh me too product. This thing is different different different from the ground up. There are some great engineering ideas implemented here. SOMEONE at Kyosho has been listening and paying attention. The body size issue is I am guessing a likeness licensing issue - who cares it still looks very cool.

[killjoyken]

Originally Posted by stampedeproject

Thanks killjoyken...

"used to steel" - I do a fair amount of fabrication and am used to sharp metal, just didn't expect it on this chassis.

Considering the chassis went straight from the stamping machine to the box, you probably got an extra sharp one. People buying the kit just need to be careful. Nothing a little sandpaper won't fix.

I dropped an old 10t Peak motor in mine last night with a MM/CCBEC and a 2100mah 3s lipo and all I can say is, "WOW". Full throttle and ZERO torque twist. This rig stays FLAT. The gearing is super low, so I think I'll be ordering the high speed gear set and a cobalt puller. This motor probably won't last long this way.

The thinnest shock oil I had was 20wt and it still seems over damped compared to my Losi's with 60wt. Out of the box this thing is amazing and with a little tuning it may be an Axial killer.

[stampedeproject]

A 10T is still going to be too slow unless we gear the thing to the moon.

Fitted some Pro-Line Epic beadlocks on the RF and not only do they look great, they narrow the stance by 1/4".

Working on getting everything all picture perfect for the Magazine's photo shoot.

[stampedeproject]

Since my first post I have received more than a few emails and questions about the RF.

Most of the questions are stemming from all the rants (myself included) on the RF. Asking something like..."so how bad is it".

The reality is the Rock Force is so new that only the "Media, lucky, and/or Sponsored Types" like myself have them in our grubby little hands. The harsher reality is that most of us have only had about a week of experience with the RF at this point which is hardly enough to form any real opinion. As I recall we all had grips about the AX10, all be it different ones.

From my vast experience with the RF (noting I am sayng that sarcastically) the RF needs some tweaking to be competive, but that's the fun of the crawling. Yeah I think the high speed gears are required along with a new body, wheels and possibly tires. In the defense of the RF the stock components are very heavy duty, on my AX10 comp rig (and probably yours), I have replaced about 65%-70% of the parts with aftermarket or upgrades parts with untold hours tweaking this and that. The potential is there for a really great crawler. Based on the rig type spread we say at Nationals, there is no magic pill (as in we all though Bergs would jsut stomp everyone) and like anything else has more to do with the driver than the rig. The huge advantage right out of the gate with the RF is the brute strength it provides right out of the box. I will be surprised if breakage becomes and issue - that said Kyosho probably should think about offering a slipper of some sort as the worm gears generate and un-godly amount of torque. There is so much gear reduction that I am pretty sure you could crawl with a 1/16th Tekin Mini Rage system.

I am a little surprised to here people already complaining already about the front link setup. From an engineering perspective this is a superior link setup and so good that only the most expensive and advanced 1:1 Formula 1 off road Rock Racers (crawlers) use this setup. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...pbell+buggy%22 and is one reason that even with a 4.5R Novak Brushless system I had zero chassis torque twist... it was dead flat.

There are lots of other subtle features of the RF that I think over time will prove very cool once we mere mortals understand them.

I will do my best to figure out a bunch of tweaks with limited use of aftermarket parts and then let the mayhem begin with everything I can find and engineer to get it ready to go head-to-head with AX10's and Bergs.

Variety is the spice of life and I am very happy that Kyosho took a completely different path and didn't just introduce a "me to" product.

I will keep you posted.

[HiloDB1]

Its been good to have all this info prior to starting mine. I just got my kit in the mail the other day and started work on the front axle. From reading all the other post the olny thing I feel is lacking right out of the box is steering angle. Its good to have others keepnig us informed of a product whether it be good or bad.

[mulepic]

Hi, Can you tell me how the RF does on your incline board? Ever since I watched your youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7t5G...eature=channel I've been fixated on getting my axial to climb 70 degrees, at 65 now. Can you do me a favor and run the RF up your board and let us know how it does? I'm in the decision process of getting another crawler. I'm between the RF and the berg. I like the slow wheel speed of the RF and lack of torque twist.

[stampedeproject]

The RF did not do well on my incline board of pain in out of the box with no wheel weights in completely stock setup. I only managed about 50 degrees (about what a stock Axial would do).

Two observations - the Stock tires although seemingly sticky, couldn't hold or get any traction on anything greater than 50 degrees even though the board is covered with 60 grit sandpaper.

What was interesting and very hopeful was that again there was NO torque roll what so ever. Once I get some real time to tune and swap out tires after the article is done it should hit 60 degrees in relatively stock form outside of tires.

[mulepic]

Thanks for the info. I must say I'm a bit surprised. You're right the axial doesn't do much more than 50 out of the box but that's b/c it torque twists like crazy so I'm a bit surprised the RF didn't do much better. Maybe as you say it's simply a traction issue. I'm actually surprised you use 60 grit. I have panthers on my axial and 60 grit does me no good. Only 120 grit works for me.

I'll look forward to seeing what you can climb w/ that thing once you get the traction figured out. If that's all it takes for the RF than that's a much easier solution than what it takes to get an axial to climb 60.

[vonclod]

lots of good info here, i took mine toa local indoor crawl course and i can say it most definatly needs the highspeed gearset..running a 27t prostock mtr and man do things get real hot..even my 22c 5000mah lipo was warm..never had that happen in any car i run and i run alot of high power bl stuff,and still couldnt make the lines..just need wheelspeed sometimes.. the 24 deg of timeing might be part of the problem there..i might just throw in a traxxas velineum sytem and see if that helps..also with the mtr spooling out all the time i was getting ..maybee 10 mins on a 1800 2s lipo..not great..so i ran the bigger batt and it seemed a little top heavy as compared to my bender/axial and the berg and it couldnt do alot of the lines i run with those 2 trucks..it definatly needs some tweeking.
it has some really good points though..bulletproof drivtrane..except for the ridiculously thin mtr plate i have no issue with the panhard other than i would love to mount the batt lower as i would on a typical 4link..i think its a cool truck, it looks like kyosho put some real effort into this, but like anything, there is no setup that works for everything and as long as we keep posting our different setups and ideas im sure it,ll get sorted out.

[HiloDB1]

You should look into a bigger pinion and a smaller spur. I have a 35t pinion and a 72t spur. With a 40t motor and 3s I get a good amount of wheel speed. I run a small lipo and get over an hour of run time. But that has to do alot more with how I drive then anything I think. Im thinking of changing the motor out for a cobalt 7t.

[vonclod]

thanx i,ll try that..i spent a fair bit of time trying to get up a certian spot and it got real hot..i,m posative the 24 degrees of timeing is the big culprit in the heat and batt drain area..i have a spare 7tpuller here..was going to use in my bender till i realized it wouldnt fit:-( as for running it in the rf i was thinking the same but the motor will stick out a bit past the skidplate and was worried about hang ups + i,m not sure if it really needs one..lol soo much bottom end..gotta use this killer mill somewhere though..i have one of his 10t pullers in my madforce super crawler..killer mtr