Ordering new brushless system tommorow, One final question.

[DasFriek]

Im gonna order a Novak Goat 3 system and i want to be sure i get it right the first time. This is going in my Night Crawler btw.
I also am all about torque and as long as it gets up to a high end speed of a walking pace ill be happy. It will be much faster im sure tho.

From all the brushless research ive done is that the torque on a series of motors is the same no matter what the turns are, Its just the lower turn motors want more amps and have more heat. But that can be balanced out with gearing and cooling fin wraps and fans if needed.
So basically an 18.5T motor with a 12t pinion will be about the same as a 21.5T motor with a 14t-16t pinion torque wise, But the 18.5 motor will have more top end and more heat. But still have the same low end torque?

Its just that the 21.5T motor is not gonna draw the higher amps and run cooler at the cost of speed.

I say this as i really want the 21.5T motor for the torque but still run very cool, But i think the 18.5T will be more versatile and more adjustable.

Am i seeing this right? And which one do you prefer, 18.5T or 21.5T?

[DeadlySwan]

I ran my lnc on 3s lipo, mmp esc, novak 18.5 brushless with a 24t to a 26t pinion with no problems. The motor and esc never got more than warm to the touch. It had great wheel speed and plenty of torque.

[DasFriek]

Ill be using a 3s 5000mAH 40c pack and a 2S with the same specs as a spare. I do like the specs and accessories the MMP has also, Especially the usb PC connection for its adjustability. But i do get scared of mixing esc's and motors as it would be my luck they didnt like each other. The MMP and the 1415-2400kv motor from Castle would be a crazy setup, but that combo starts getting expensive as no combo discounts can be applied that i know of.

The Novak motors seem to be about as good as it gets with being upgradable and part swapable. But the speed of a 24t-26t pinion is way to fast for my needs. Im running a 2S Lipo on a 55T brushed Integy Lathe motor on a 16t pinion and its almost perfect except it has no explosivness for lifting the front or leaping.

I still have nightmares of the 50mph crash's with my old tricked out Losi nitro LST that would cost a minimum of $100 to fix. So im going for max smooth slow torque and if it hits a jogging speed on the high end ill be more than happy. I have 14t,16t and a 20t motor pinion on hand and will most likley try others.
So for now im gonna just keep it simple and get the Goat 3 setup and 18.5T motor and buy a handfull of pinions and just have a day of tweaking it.

[BurnLatex]

Do not buy the Novak junk. I had a Goat 3s 21.5T and it was pretty coggy and ran hot. It finally fried the motor. I was running a 16T pinion at the time. I switched to a Mamba Max Pro and Tekin redline 17.5T and love it. Same 16T pinion. Way smoother, way faster, and runs cooler. Its night and day better.

[bluenosegoat]

On my buddies lcc we are running the novak 3s goat on 3s with the 18.5 and cogging is not noticiable ( I think its a 20 totoh pinion) but the heat is a factor. But we are in arizona and even in the early morning runs ambient is near 100 and by the the time we are 2200mah into it its 105 easy. But I will say I like my fxr brushed but the novak system seems to works really well . In heat like this all systems need a cool down- including the driver!
I run a fxr with a 55t 3s his is novak 3s 18.5t He has a little more wheel speed but the torque and lack of cogging are the same. Very tractiable combo- go with the goat... ( I really hate to say that after being tekin guy for 20yrs) The thing I dont likle about the novak is the big ass power cap and the extra wiring for the sensor-- I like simple straight forward power to the ground!

[DasFriek]

BurnLatex- I tend to ignore advice when its worded like your post is, But this time i do accept it as good info. Ive seen those types of issues about the Goat 3 before, But ive also seen it said about every other system also. So many factors are combined to make each users experiance unique to them. But ive read more excellent posts about the Goat 3 than bad ones like yours.

bluenosegoat- Thats the kind of review/info im used to reading about the Goat 3, Its not perfect and most times needs some adjusting to each application. Is that a Goat 3 in that 1:1 scale jeep? lol Except for the higher end wheel speed and explosivness my 55T 2S Lipo on the stock Losi esc is perfect with an 18t pinion for me. But getting the wheel speed and explosivness can only be done with a brushless setup if i dont want my low end torque and smoothness screwed with. I really like a smooth slooooooooow crawl as it puts the pressure on me to be the better driver but hides my lack of experiance of throttle control.

I just ordered the Goat 3 with a 12t and 14t pinion to go along with my 16t,18t and 20t pinions. I really doubt ill want to go up higher than a 20t pinion. I also ordered a GENS ACE 5000mah 3S1P 11.1V 40C hard case Lipo since ive heard of the rave reviews these have been getting for the price. I have a matching 2S 5k 40C 7.4v Venom pack i paid twice as much for, So this item has alot to prove to me. Maybe even more than the Goat 3 does.

IF HEAT ON THE ESC OR MOTOR becomes an issues ill take steps to fix that with fans,fins, and gearing. But with such low gearing i cant see it becoming one.

Ill admit i do wish i had the cash to get the MMP and 1415 motor, But the price was pushing $100 more for the setup. But to be honest i think that setup would break more driveline parts too easily id have to dial it back so much id never use it to its full potential. 99% of the time there is no such thing as "Overkill", But this time i bought this truck keeping in mind "Speed Kills, And is expensive to fix" and thats why i went with a rock crawler and not another basher.

[neillarson]

Originally Posted by bluenosegoat

On my buddies lcc we are running the novak 3s goat on 3s with the 18.5 and cogging is not noticiable ( I think its a 20 totoh pinion) but the heat is a factor. But we are in arizona and even in the early morning runs ambient is near 100 and by the the time we are 2200mah into it its 105 easy. But I will say I like my fxr brushed but the novak system seems to works really well . In heat like this all systems need a cool down- including the driver!
I run a fxr with a 55t 3s his is novak 3s 18.5t He has a little more wheel speed but the torque and lack of cogging are the same. Very tractiable combo- go with the goat... ( I really hate to say that after being tekin guy for 20yrs) The thing I dont likle about the novak is the big ass power cap and the extra wiring for the sensor-- I like simple straight forward power to the ground!

Why would you have cogging? It is a sensored brushless. I can run my Goat 3S 18.5 as slow as my brushed. a dead creep.

[overeasytoy]

Originally Posted by DasFriek

BurnLatex- I tend to ignore advice when its worded like your post is, But this time i do accept it as good info. Ive seen those types of issues about the Goat 3 before, But ive also seen it said about every other system also. So many factors are combined to make each users experiance unique to them. But ive read more excellent posts about the Goat 3 than bad ones like yours.

bluenosegoat- Thats the kind of review/info im used to reading about the Goat 3, Its not perfect and most times needs some adjusting to each application. Is that a Goat 3 in that 1:1 scale jeep? lol Except for the higher end wheel speed and explosivness my 55T 2S Lipo on the stock Losi esc is perfect with an 18t pinion for me. But getting the wheel speed and explosivness can only be done with a brushless setup if i dont want my low end torque and smoothness screwed with. I really like a smooth slooooooooow crawl as it puts the pressure on me to be the better driver but hides my lack of experiance of throttle control.

I just ordered the Goat 3 with a 12t and 14t pinion to go along with my 16t,18t and 20t pinions. I really doubt ill want to go up higher than a 20t pinion. I also ordered a GENS ACE 5000mah 3S1P 11.1V 40C hard case Lipo since ive heard of the rave reviews these have been getting for the price. I have a matching 2S 5k 40C 7.4v Venom pack i paid twice as much for, So this item has alot to prove to me. Maybe even more than the Goat 3 does.

IF HEAT ON THE ESC OR MOTOR becomes an issues ill take steps to fix that with fans,fins, and gearing. But with such low gearing i cant see it becoming one.

Ill admit i do wish i had the cash to get the MMP and 1415 motor, But the price was pushing $100 more for the setup. But to be honest i think that setup would break more driveline parts too easily id have to dial it back so much id never use it to its full potential. 99% of the time there is no such thing as "Overkill", But this time i bought this truck keeping in mind "Speed Kills, And is expensive to fix" and thats why i went with a rock crawler and not another basher.

What motor did you end up ordering? I'm thinking of doing the same thing.

[skid]

For price and versitillity, MMP and tekin 21.5 motor. Nobody local here runs Novak any more becuase they all burned up. And before that the performance just wasn't up to par.

[highlandcrawler]

Originally Posted by skid

For price and versitillity, MMP and tekin 21.5 motor. Nobody local here runs Novak any more becuase they all burned up. And before that the performance just wasn't up to par.

Same in my area. All the Novaks are burnt and weren't that great from the get go. Most have swapped to the MMP and Tekin combos and are very happy.

[DasFriek]

Originally Posted by overeasytoy

What motor did you end up ordering? I'm thinking of doing the same thing.

Well it seems the last few posts feel my judgment in buying the Goat 3 system was wrong. I went with the 18.5T motor and this link is why i chose that over the 21.5T motor. I also ordered this GENS ACE 5000mah 3S1P 11.1V 40C hard case Lipo to match the same exact 2S specced Lipo pack from Venom i paid 2x as much for. But between the two packs i should be able to run 5-6 hours with no charging.
http://www.castlecreations.com/suppo...ing_guide.html

"Gearing, Torque and Top Speed:"

A high power capable brushless motor in electrical engineering and physics terms, has unlimited torque. We live in “the real world” so technically for us that’s not totally true, but – a brushed motor has a torque level that due to its design has an upper limit, regardless of how much power is being applied to it. That limit is low enough that you can see it clearly on an average track On the other hand, a high power brushless motor’s limit to torque in an RC vehicle is not within the bounds of the motor itself so much, but rather falls on the ability of the battery to deliver current to it. We generally don’t describe these motors in terms of “one has more torque than the other”, but rather “the 7700Kv motor is faster and draws more current than a 5700Kv motor in the same vehicle”. It draws more current, because it’s making the car go faster and doing more work than the 5700 motor is. As long as the batteries used are very good at supplying current without an excess of voltage depression (low internal resistance is good) both motors will appear to have the same torque, even though one is much faster than the other. Battery technology is constantly improving, and the first thing you’ll notice when you use a very good battery pack (or perhaps trying a Lipo pack for the first time) with these systems is a more “punchy” feel when you accelerate. The faster you set up the car to go at full throttle, the more reliant you are on good batteries to flow that current into the motor and maintain acceleration performance. So think of torque as a function of battery capability only.

After i read that i decided the 18.5T being a higher amp motor has more ability to be tuned than the lower current 21.5T does. Its no giant jump in power but it should feel just like the 21.5T but with more punch.

highlandcrawler and skid have either of you owned a Goat 3? The owners i read post from all raved about how good they are.

Also the Novak motors are all rebuild-able and upgradeable to better bearings and higher or lower turns, Including a 25.5T hand wound stator.

[skid]

Originally Posted by DasFriek

After i read that i decided the 18.5T being a higher amp motor has more ability to be tuned than the lower current 21.5T does. Its no giant jump in power but it should feel just like the 21.5T but with more punch.

highlandcrawler and skid have either of you owned a Goat 3? The owners i read post from all raved about how good they are.

Also the Novak motors are all rebuild-able and upgradeable to better bearings and higher or lower turns, Including a 25.5T hand wound stator.

theory is one thing. The real world is another. My 17.5 and 13.5 are no where near the low end control of my 21.5. Plus with timing advance of the Tekin or MMP I have the top end of a 17.5.

And yes, I've burned up a goat. And any owner I've let drive my Tekin or MMP said they're switching.
Go find one of each setup properly first hand and try it.

And this is just my view, but with a motor can being the heatsink, do you really want a stator that fits loos enough to remove? Also how many esc's does Novak need to build to cover the market.

[concretejungle]

you shouldn't have ordered the Novak junk. I had two of the goat 3s... Now i'm running the MMP 1 cell and NEVER looking back.

[mrG]

MMP and a tekin 21.5 for sure.

[BurnLatex]

You must have researched this on a different forum than me. I just went through this 2-3 months ago. I read this forum for 2 full weeks on this subject alone. I haven't seen anyone that isn't a newb or hasn't experienced the Castle/Tekin combo, say the Novak was good stuff.

I went down from 21T to 17T and lost heat and gained everything performance wise. Its backwards to theory really but its true.

A MMP is a bit larger than the Goat but obviously you don't care about size with that huge battery. Or COG. I have a small 1000mah 3s on the front links nice and low. Huge runtime is the last thing you need with a LCC. The diffs heat up in 5-8 minutes of running and needs to be shut down to cool. Its a comp rig not really a basher. If you ran a full 5000 pack all the grease will have melted out of the diff housing.

More reasearch needed. I'm not gonna tell you how to build your crawler. It up to you how you like it and how your gonna use it. I like all out comp performance. I'm just trying to help you out. Its all about having fun.

[highlandcrawler]

Originally Posted by DasFriek

highlandcrawler and skid have either of you owned a Goat 3? The owners i read post from all raved about how good they are.

I have tried them and they just don't feel as good as the Tekin and Trinity motors. I have sitting in my burnt pile a goat 2s, goat 3s and various other gtbs and roosters. The ballistic motors aren't terrible but far from the best. I also see a lot of people say how great the Novak stuff is. I also see that a lot of them are new to crawling and have no real basis to properly compare the motor. Ive personally seen guys say how great and smooth their novak is and then try a real nice motor and be blown away with what they were missing. We all have our opinions on what we think is good and what works best. Novak just doesn't understand crawling.

[DasFriek]

Well, hmmm, oooooh,eeeek! This is one time my research lead me astray, I knew the MMP was a better esc but i didnt think the whole system was in question quality wise. I feel like i bought an HPI Savage to use as a rock crawler kinda embaressment, But someone likes the Goat 3's as i didnt make this up in my head.

One issue i am facing is money, But i could have just bought the esc now and the motor next month had i known i would have gotten this backlash. I can always send it back to A-Main Hobbies unopened as a return tho. I guess you get what you pay for, But $170 isnt a cheap item unless you compare it to the other combo's.

Also i dont think im hard enough on my truck to melt away the grease in the axles, I did just buy a large 16oz tub of Napa premium chassis and wheel bearing grease so ill be in there soon enough. And if i find grease run off ill drill and tap the axles like the tips sticky shows.

[skid]

I will note that I do see a lot of Castle stuff with poor switches. Just had one on a new MMP. But I usually cut them off and solder the wires together anyway. Just seem to cause problems for me on any esc after a year.

[corkysk8]

I have used a Goat 3s with a non-ballistic (12.3mm rotor) 18.5T motor for two years now. I use this in a LCC, so my experience with it is not going to be like yours in the Night Crawler. I have the ability to unbind the axles using dig, where you will not. I had to sent the motor back to Novak early on R/T a broken sensor wire. This is the only problems I have had with the ESC/motor. I originally used it with the 14mm optional rotor (the stock one for a ballistic motor) and it made the motor choppy at very slow speeds. I think this is why people say the Tekin is smoother, since they have 12.3 or 12.5mm rotors to start with. If you use the Goat Ballistic combo, I would suggest using the 12.3mm rotor. It is much smoother and you also gain some speed. If you plan on extended runs you should get the Novak heat sink/fan system that fits the motor. I would not recommend running it to the end of a 5000mah battery though.

[mrG]

I use a 14mm rotor in my tekin. It's the esc settings that smooth things out, the MMP has lots of adjustments and CHEAT mode (turbo)