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-   -   LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question! (http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/team-losi-comp-crawler/486661-lnc-transmission-pinion-gear-question.html)

murlin12 03-09-2014 03:00 PM

LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
I recently bought my first LNC about a month ago ( completely stock ). I also bought my cousions AX10 ( good parts for a good price! ). The AX10 had a Integy 35T motor on it and I put that on the Night Crawler. It has a lot of torque now with the 20t pinion and all but I was wondering what could I change to make it go faster ( a little more pep to get over the rocks)? Like which gears would I need to change to accomplish more pep?.......Change the pinion gear on the motor or the ones on the outside of the trans????

Thaks For Reading,

Murlin :mrgreen:

GiJoe 03-09-2014 03:12 PM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Your best bet is to bite the bullet and switch to a Sensored Brushless System.

There are a few variables as to what motor and pinion, but a good all around set-up would be:

13.5 motor
Mamba Max Pro ESC
15T Pinion
3S Battery


I've run this combo in many different rigs with an LNC Trans and had great luck."thumbsup"

braune 03-09-2014 03:41 PM

What you also can do is the mod... well I call it JENS-mod...( if you look at his build thread you can see it, modifying the middle gear) and change to a 19t pinion.

Next is to change to a Sensored BL system... my suggestion: 18.5 Novak Motor with a MMP or tekin RS with the 4S tap and a 3 or 4 cell LiPo:thumbup:



Sent with my GT-S5570 using Tapatalk 2

murlin12 03-09-2014 03:56 PM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GiJoe (Post 4702816)
Your best bet is to bite the bullet and switch to a Sensored Brushless System.

There are a few variables as to what motor and pinion, but a good all around set-up would be:

13.5 motor
Mamba Max Pro ESC
15T Pinion
3S Battery


I've run this combo in many different rigs with an LNC Trans and had great luck."thumbsup"

Well funny thing is, my cousions AX10 came with a Tekin-FXR and a 2s lipo so I guess all I would need is a 13.5t motor and a smaller pinion?

Olle P 03-12-2014 01:08 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by murlin12 (Post 4702862)
Well funny thing is, my cousions AX10 came with a Tekin-FXR and a 2s lipo so I guess all I would need is a 13.5t motor and a smaller pinion?

No!
The Fx-r is for brushed motors only. You need an ESC able to handle sensored brushless motors and have instant reverse.

The two best ESCs fitting the bill are Castle Mamba Max Pro and Tekin RS.

As for motor I'd suggest a Holmes Hobbies Revolver S 540, which is a sensored outrunner with lots of torque and butter smooth thanks to the 14 poles.
With the increased torque you can use a larger pinion, and if the speed still isn't enough just increase the voltage!

Crawl Space 03-12-2014 01:26 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle P (Post 4705985)
No!
The Fx-r is for brushed motors only. You need an ESC able to handle sensored brushless motors and have instant reverse.

The two best ESCs fitting the bill are Castle Mamba Max Pro and Tekin RS.

As for motor I'd suggest a Holmes Hobbies Revolver S 540, which is a sensored outrunner with lots of torque and butter smooth thanks to the 14 poles.
With the increased torque you can use a larger pinion, and if the speed still isn't enough just increase the voltage!

I normally run a 17.5t orion with a 15 tooth pinion & timing boost and the wheel speed is awesome! However, I took the revolver S out of my wraith to try in my LNC and there is nowhere enough wheelspeed on 3s with a 20t pinion. Would probably have to run a 25-30t pinion and maybe 4s to get the same speed with the outrunner. I know John is working on a higher kv outrunner that will likely be the ticket for our worms!

dentonmac 03-12-2014 07:01 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawl Space (Post 4705989)
However, I took the revolver S out of my wraith to try in my LNC and there is nowhere enough wheelspeed on 3s with a 20t pinion. Would probably have to run a 25-30t pinion and maybe 4s to get the same speed with the outrunner. I know John is working on a higher kv outrunner that will likely be the ticket for our worms!

Wow! Really???

Not doubting, just disappointed. But glad something better is in the works.

Crawl Space 03-12-2014 05:14 PM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dentonmac (Post 4706088)
Wow! Really???

Not doubting, just disappointed. But glad something better is in the works.

Yeah, I was about to pull the trigger on a stubby 520 s - glad I tried it before ordering. I don't want to deal with the weight of 4s so the current revolver is not an option for me. I wish I could afford to run revolvers on all my other rigs though - coolest motor I've ever had "thumbsup"

murlin12 03-12-2014 07:13 PM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle P (Post 4705985)
No!
The Fx-r is for brushed motors only. You need an ESC able to handle sensored brushless motors and have instant reverse.

The two best ESCs fitting the bill are Castle Mamba Max Pro and Tekin RS.

As for motor I'd suggest a Holmes Hobbies Revolver S 540, which is a sensored outrunner with lots of torque and butter smooth thanks to the 14 poles.
With the increased torque you can use a larger pinion, and if the speed still isn't enough just increase the voltage!

Thanks!!! Maybe you can tell me.... Im having a hard time grasping the inrunner and outrunner motors! Ive done research but everything I find is about stupid planes!!

Hardline 03-13-2014 02:14 PM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by braune (Post 4702846)
What you also can do is the mod... well I call it JENS-mod...( if you look at his build thread you can see it, modifying the middle gear) and change to a 19t pinion.

Can you post a link to that thread? I know I've seen it, but now can't find it for some reason. thanks

dentonmac 03-13-2014 02:30 PM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardline (Post 4707782)
Can you post a link to that thread? I know I've seen it, but now can't find it for some reason. thanks

Just looked at it.

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/team-...-sporty-3.html

Post #58

I wish he would explain in more detail. If you figure it out, let me know.

Liv3mind 03-14-2014 12:54 AM

I run a 18.5 mmp and 20t on 3s. Like it so far

Olle P 03-14-2014 07:27 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawl Space (Post 4705989)
I normally run a 17.5t orion with a 15 tooth pinion & timing boost and the wheel speed is awesome! However, I took the revolver S out of my wraith to try in my LNC and there is nowhere enough wheelspeed on 3s with a 20t pinion.

That seems strange...
My 17.5T is 1870 Kv, and running it with a 12T pinion in the LCC (equivalent to a 15T pinion in the LNC) to me feels a wee bit more sluggish than desired on 4S. I can use a considerably larger pinion without losing too much torque or overheating the motor though, reaching the top speed I want, but I don't because my motor is jerky on very low speed.

Switching to a Revolver S I could go up in Kv AND gearing, getting more speed, while at the same time have a smoother operation at low speed!
The Revolver is supposed to provide so much more torque that gearing up should be no sweat!
3S should get you a long way, when combined with proper gearing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by murlin12 (Post 4706843)
Im having a hard time grasping the inrunner and outrunner motors!

Inrunner = Rotor on the inside.
Outrunner = Rotor on the outside.

Typically inrunners are: Few poles, high Kv, low torque.
Outrunners are: Many poles, low Kv, high torque.

Revolver S is the only serial production outrunner with sensor.

JENS 03-14-2014 10:43 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dentonmac (Post 4707808)
Just looked at it.

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/team-...-sporty-3.html

Post #58

I wish he would explain in more detail. If you figure it out, let me know.

The large end of the middle gear is just "lathed" off with my drill-press,and the motor-mount holes extended to get the motor closer.
Front gearbox bracket removed,the other two mounts reduced in length and a new side gearbox mount "fabricated" from a servomount :)
The motor-plate is also trimmed a bit ;-)

dentonmac 03-14-2014 11:21 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JENS (Post 4708849)
The large end of the middle gear is just "lathed" off with my drill-press,and the motor-mount holes extended to get the motor closer.
Front gearbox bracket removed,the other two mounts reduced in length and a new side gearbox mount "fabricated" from a servomount :)
The motor-plate is also trimmed a bit ;-)

Thank you. Beautiful. I see now.

The problem was that you did such a good job lathing the gear I thought it was a factory part. I was thinking, well where did you get that gear from. Sneaky...you made it! Awesome.

I know what I am going to try this weekend.

Liv3mind 03-14-2014 11:30 AM

LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dentonmac (Post 4708884)
Thank you. Beautiful. I see now.



The problem was that you did such a good job lathing the gear I thought it was a factory part. I was thinking, well where did you get that gear from. Sneaky...you made it! Awesome.



I know what I am going to try this weekend.


I also think I see this in my future. So if your running the stock center and the motor direct to that, what pinion should be used on the motor? How does the ratio change ? I like the idea of being able to slide the motor closer to center again even if it's slight. I need a chassis and Lcc shocks are gunna be in order for ajust ability

JENS 03-14-2014 01:04 PM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liv3mind (Post 4708899)
I also think I see this in my future. So if your running the stock center and the motor direct to that, what pinion should be used on the motor? How does the ratio change ? I like the idea of being able to slide the motor closer to center again even if it's slight. I need a chassis and Lcc shocks are gunna be in order for ajust ability

My gearbox now has a 3,33 ratio with a 15t pinion. If my calculations are right-that is about running a 24t pinion with the stock LNC gearbox :)

@ Olle P,-correct me if I'm wrong ;-)

Crawl Space 03-15-2014 12:46 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle P (Post 4708674)
That seems strange...
My 17.5T is 1870 Kv, and running it with a 12T pinion in the LCC (equivalent to a 15T pinion in the LNC) to me feels a wee bit more sluggish than desired on 4S. I can use a considerably larger pinion without losing too much torque or overheating the motor though, reaching the top speed I want, but I don't because my motor is jerky on very low speed.

Switching to a Revolver S I could go up in Kv AND gearing, getting more speed, while at the same time have a smoother operation at low speed!
The Revolver is supposed to provide so much more torque that gearing up should be no sweat!
3S should get you a long way, when combined with proper gearing.

I've found that running a sensored inrunner motor with CHEAT mode actually yields a broader rpm range than running an outrunner in smart sense mode on 3s. The reason is you still get the torque and low end control of a 17.5t below the specified rpm threshold, but above that, the top end is pushed to something close to what a 4500 - 5500kv motor puts out. I can crawl just as slowly with the 17.5t as with the revolver (albeit slightly less smooth), but the top end is easily 2x the rpm.

The obvious trade-off of course is heat. I need to keep my run times shorter with the 17.5, whereas I can run the revolver S all day long, pack after pack, and never overheat.

I am hoping the next generation of revolvers will utilize sensor-based timing advance to achieve a greater rpm range. "thumbsup"

Olle P 03-17-2014 04:06 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawl Space (Post 4709661)
I've found that running a sensored inrunner motor with CHEAT mode actually yields a broader rpm range than running an outrunner in smart sense mode on 3s. The reason is you still get the torque and low end control of a 17.5t below the specified rpm threshold, but above that, the top end is pushed to something close to what a 4500 - 5500kv motor puts out. ...

I think that depends on the specific motors used and the timing limitation of MMP.

- Typically using the same timing on a few pole inrunner and a multi pole outrunner will make more of a difference on the inrunner. (But for my inrunner motor 20 degrees of timing, the MMP maximum, is considered to be "a little".)
- With zero physical timing on the sensor the behaviour should be the same in SMART and CHEAT mode, given that the same high speed timing is set. SMART is supposed to work better, because the ESC's electronics can have a hard time keeping up at high sensor speeds.

Anyway, I'm now waiting for the Revolver S to come back in stock so I can order one and find out for myself.

dentonmac 03-17-2014 09:48 AM

Re: LNC Transmission an Pinion Gear Question!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawl Space (Post 4709661)
I've found that running a sensored inrunner motor with CHEAT mode actually yields a broader rpm range than running an outrunner in smart sense mode on 3s. The reason is you still get the torque and low end control of a 17.5t below the specified rpm threshold, but above that, the top end is pushed to something close to what a 4500 - 5500kv motor puts out. I can crawl just as slowly with the 17.5t as with the revolver (albeit slightly less smooth), but the top end is easily 2x the rpm.

I totally agree. You can tune it to have the torque at the low end and ramp the timing up to get the RPMs out of it, without having to jump to 4s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawl Space (Post 4709661)
The obvious trade-off of course is heat. I need to keep my run times shorter with the 17.5, whereas I can run the revolver S all day long, pack after pack, and never overheat.

That surprises me, I have had excellent results with the motor staying cool. I think after 3 packs the motor is barely warm. Granted, I am not pounding on it, but I sure ain't Driving Mrs. Daisy. I am also not in the upper RPM range much at all. Also the lifeblood for motors in these things is drivetrain efficiency. I am thankful for my stock-class racing background, where drivetrain efficiency is paramount.

EDIT: I am running a 17.5 motor also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawl Space (Post 4709661)
I am hoping the next generation of revolvers will utilize sensor-based timing advance to achieve a greater rpm range. "thumbsup"

I am definitely not an expert here, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. Mechanically speaking, The more 'poles' a motor has the less it takes to timing advance. The Revolver motors are 14 pole (I think). That is one of the reasons I have stuck so long with the 2 pole motors. Although JENs has changed things alittle with his LNC tranny mod, I think that realm of being able to tune timing is important to get the performance out of them the way Losi tranny hamstrungs us for gearing options.


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