RCCrawler Forums

Mad Scientist · 04-09-2006, 12:24 AM

How well does CF Plate hold up to off-road use, especially in wet and muddy conditions? If the edges are well prepped, by sanding and sealing with CA glue, would it hold up fine without warping or de-laminating? Obviously it can only withstand limited abuse from rocks and other abrasive surfaces, but it should be fairly impervious to moisture and mud, correct?

Edit: Perhaps this belongs in the Tools and Procedures forum, if so - my apologies.

JohnRobHolmes · 04-09-2006, 12:34 AM

If you properly seal the edges it will hold up well barring scratch related injury. If there was a scratch you would need to CA it shut to keep possible water wicking away. Kevlar would be a better weave IMO for crawling though, as it withstands abrasion and twisting much more.

The best edge sealing that I have done was performed with medium CA glue. Be careful of the fumes that come off the CF though, they are very toxic.

Mad Scientist · 04-09-2006, 12:45 AM

So is water an issue with CF plate? I was wondering how much water, if any, would try to seep into un-sealed edges. Would wet-sanding the edges to keep the dust to a minimum be a bad idea? If I let it dry thoroughly before I seal it, would it be ok?

I actually have some Kevler/CF weave around somewhere, but I would have to laminate it myself. Perhaps a Vantage-style formed chassis? 8-)

JohnRobHolmes · 04-09-2006, 12:54 AM

To my knowledge CF doesnt wick too much, and kevlar would wick more, but with everything sealed it would be fine.

Wet sanding would be an excellent idea, and the amount of water involved wouldnt affect it much. You could let it dry a bit before CA'ing it, but water makes CA bond faster anyway. Either way I doubt the finished product would be much different.

Do you have the skills to lay up a formed chassis? I haven't seen it done, but it would work well IMO. You could mount the shocks, tranny, links, and anything else just how you wanted it. You could control the flex of the weave, weight, and belly clearance too. It would be pretty awesome. A acetal skin on the bottom would be good.

Mad Scientist · 04-09-2006, 01:08 AM

Cool, thanks for the info.

My experience comes from an Art background, and while I have done some casting/ forming/molding, I have never worked with carbon fiber before. But I have seen some CF work done before, and I am somewhat familiar with the procedure. I would be willing to give it a shot - if you have any tips, I'd appreciate it.

JohnRobHolmes · 04-09-2006, 01:10 AM

Most of my knowledge has come from hanging out around wing baggers and plane builders. I see EGRESSor lurking, so maybe he will pipe up with some laminate tips.

JohnRobHolmes · 04-09-2006, 01:19 AM

As far as forming, I dont know what to use for release agents. The form of the chassis could be shaped easily from a block of dense foam. Lay your glass (or kevlar or CF) and epoxy layers and just squeeze and scrape all the air out with a Credit Card or similar object. Just like building a boat, but small.

silvr_tung_devl · 04-09-2006, 06:15 AM

But you need to "bake" it after its laid up....the procedures i've seen have used a wlak in "oven"(i'm lacking the terminology)...I don't think it'd be as simple as it sounds......as for wicking and water absorption, even if left unsealed, water's not an issue...and it'll hold up to anything you throw at it...

shutupanddrive · 04-09-2006, 12:29 PM

It's an autoclave. True carbon should be vacuum bagged and autoclaved. If not, it's just considered a "wet lay up" and more for looks. A lot of the CF crap people stick on their cars is just wet layed and isn't anywhere near as strong as a real vacuum bagged and autoclaved piece would be. I've made things both ways and there's a night and day difference. Wet Lay stuff will crack easier from all the excess resin.

I'll see if I can find some pics of the CF valve covers we made at the shop I used to work at.

As far as release agants, it depends on what you make the mold out off. Any good plastics or composites store should have several to chose from. I use some crap in a spary can, but can't remember what it is exactly. It came from TAP plastics in San Francisco. I miss having that place near by! I can't find a good plastics place near me in SoCal.

silvr_tung_devl · 04-09-2006, 06:54 PM

Yeah...thats it!! I couldn't remember....I've got a buddy that lays cf up.....he does mostly dragster and F1 air intakes...but can lay up anything that can be molded....the process is spectacular to watch......

zetecoli · 04-15-2006, 10:47 AM

Hi, i work with carbon fibre all day long, im a composite technician and mainly work on F1 chassis. just to confirm pre-preg carbon will certainly withstand water and most solvents and chemicals. the company i work for has just finished making a cf manicin for the canadian army to test chemical warfare suits on. i dont personally think that sealing the edges of the cf is needed, ive never heard of water penitating it, even if it did it would not damage the apoxy at all. As for release agent if your doing a wet-layup then mirror glaze ( in a blue tin think made by megulars ) will be fine just wipe on a buff it off a few times. as for a pre-preg layup thats going to be auto claved use Loctite 700-NC freekote, its a bit on the pricey side though. If you got any questions about the layup processes id be happy to help.

04-09-2006, 12:24 AM	#1
Mad Scientist RCC Addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Saginaw Posts: 1,721	CF Lamination Integrity How well does CF Plate hold up to off-road use, especially in wet and muddy conditions? If the edges are well prepped, by sanding and sealing with CA glue, would it hold up fine without warping or de-laminating? Obviously it can only withstand limited abuse from rocks and other abrasive surfaces, but it should be fairly impervious to moisture and mud, correct? Edit: Perhaps this belongs in the Tools and Procedures forum, if so - my apologies. Last edited by Mad Scientist; 04-09-2006 at 12:31 AM.

04-09-2006, 12:34 AM	#2
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	If you properly seal the edges it will hold up well barring scratch related injury. If there was a scratch you would need to CA it shut to keep possible water wicking away. Kevlar would be a better weave IMO for crawling though, as it withstands abrasion and twisting much more. The best edge sealing that I have done was performed with medium CA glue. Be careful of the fumes that come off the CF though, they are very toxic.

04-09-2006, 12:45 AM	#3
Mad Scientist RCC Addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Saginaw Posts: 1,721	So is water an issue with CF plate? I was wondering how much water, if any, would try to seep into un-sealed edges. Would wet-sanding the edges to keep the dust to a minimum be a bad idea? If I let it dry thoroughly before I seal it, would it be ok? I actually have some Kevler/CF weave around somewhere, but I would have to laminate it myself. Perhaps a Vantage-style formed chassis? 8-)

04-09-2006, 12:54 AM	#4
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	To my knowledge CF doesnt wick too much, and kevlar would wick more, but with everything sealed it would be fine. Wet sanding would be an excellent idea, and the amount of water involved wouldnt affect it much. You could let it dry a bit before CA'ing it, but water makes CA bond faster anyway. Either way I doubt the finished product would be much different. Do you have the skills to lay up a formed chassis? I haven't seen it done, but it would work well IMO. You could mount the shocks, tranny, links, and anything else just how you wanted it. You could control the flex of the weave, weight, and belly clearance too. It would be pretty awesome. A acetal skin on the bottom would be good.

04-09-2006, 01:08 AM	#5
Mad Scientist RCC Addict Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Saginaw Posts: 1,721	Cool, thanks for the info. My experience comes from an Art background, and while I have done some casting/ forming/molding, I have never worked with carbon fiber before. But I have seen some CF work done before, and I am somewhat familiar with the procedure. I would be willing to give it a shot - if you have any tips, I'd appreciate it.

04-09-2006, 01:10 AM	#6
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	Most of my knowledge has come from hanging out around wing baggers and plane builders. I see EGRESSor lurking, so maybe he will pipe up with some laminate tips.

04-09-2006, 01:19 AM	#7
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	As far as forming, I dont know what to use for release agents. The form of the chassis could be shaped easily from a block of dense foam. Lay your glass (or kevlar or CF) and epoxy layers and just squeeze and scrape all the air out with a Credit Card or similar object. Just like building a boat, but small.

04-09-2006, 06:15 AM	#8
silvr_tung_devl Quarry Creeper Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Indy-Westside Posts: 306	But you need to "bake" it after its laid up....the procedures i've seen have used a wlak in "oven"(i'm lacking the terminology)...I don't think it'd be as simple as it sounds......as for wicking and water absorption, even if left unsealed, water's not an issue...and it'll hold up to anything you throw at it...

04-09-2006, 12:29 PM	#9
shutupanddrive Quarry Creeper Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: LBC Posts: 370	It's an autoclave. True carbon should be vacuum bagged and autoclaved. If not, it's just considered a "wet lay up" and more for looks. A lot of the CF crap people stick on their cars is just wet layed and isn't anywhere near as strong as a real vacuum bagged and autoclaved piece would be. I've made things both ways and there's a night and day difference. Wet Lay stuff will crack easier from all the excess resin. I'll see if I can find some pics of the CF valve covers we made at the shop I used to work at. As far as release agants, it depends on what you make the mold out off. Any good plastics or composites store should have several to chose from. I use some crap in a spary can, but can't remember what it is exactly. It came from TAP plastics in San Francisco. I miss having that place near by! I can't find a good plastics place near me in SoCal.

04-09-2006, 06:54 PM	#10
silvr_tung_devl Quarry Creeper Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Indy-Westside Posts: 306	Yeah...thats it!! I couldn't remember....I've got a buddy that lays cf up.....he does mostly dragster and F1 air intakes...but can lay up anything that can be molded....the process is spectacular to watch......

04-15-2006, 10:47 AM	#11
zetecoli Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Towcester Posts: 7	Hi, i work with carbon fibre all day long, im a composite technician and mainly work on F1 chassis. just to confirm pre-preg carbon will certainly withstand water and most solvents and chemicals. the company i work for has just finished making a cf manicin for the canadian army to test chemical warfare suits on. i dont personally think that sealing the edges of the cf is needed, ive never heard of water penitating it, even if it did it would not damage the apoxy at all. As for release agent if your doing a wet-layup then mirror glaze ( in a blue tin think made by megulars ) will be fine just wipe on a buff it off a few times. as for a pre-preg layup thats going to be auto claved use Loctite 700-NC freekote, its a bit on the pricey side though. If you got any questions about the layup processes id be happy to help.

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