2013 Rules

[JeremyH]

Gotcha. I still have a problem with the rear axle coming through the gate in the wrong direction for the first time...

 

[Erik D_lux]

Just because something isnt written in the rules doesnt mean that its OK to do.

Right, this is what bothers me. Just like the jumping rule, its not in there that you can. It just says that you need to go "between" the gates. It does not say that the gates extend vertically in both directions or just one. It doesnt say they even extend. Its something else we have just figured out and rolled with. Well, the up part, I am pretty sure there are a lot of folks that still disagree that you can go below. Lets just sweep that one under the carpet and not address that either....

It doesnt say we cant leave the gate after half progressed, turn around, enter it from the wrong direction to get the other half of progress because MOST people KNOW thats not how the rules were intended. MOST people understand that when we lay down gates with the arrows pointed in a certain direction that THATS the direction you must take to earn progress.

Youre taking the video way too literally. This is why I said many posts back that I didnt want to even show the video until I understood what the definitions were. I knew the instant I showed the video that people would throw all their feelings into it and say its not right because it does not look right. Everybody feels the gate should not be cleared in that sense so they would say its not legal. If we were talking in person I would be able to explain this much easier. Its hard to explain what I am saying and at this point I will probably just let it be since everybody has their mind made up and I dont care to push it. If everybody is happy with the lackluster rules that need personal opinion and feelings to rule, thats fine with me. Actually its not, but I believe majority rules and if thats what everybody wants, so be it.

If you remember...both Jeremy & I agreed that it was legal. Why? Because he made a clean progress in the INTENDED direction. What you do in the video isnt the same. I dont understand how you're comparing the two. IMO we DID have common sense & thats why it was ruled as legal.

Weird. I dont remember you having any say in that issue. Its not like you were a marshall or anything.

The only way I am comparing the two is that youre saying one is ok while the other is not. Neither are covered in the rules and both are based off how you feel. Like I said above, lots of people disagreed at the time on that call and still do. Remember....

Just because something isnt written in the rules doesnt mean that its OK to do.

Going under a gate sure isnt in the rules..... but for whatever reason, its ok to do according to you, not ok according to others... still to this day.

How can you jump OVER a pair of gates legally but not crawl UNDER a pair legally?

I 100% agree. Why cant you do both? Neither jumping over or going under are in the rules so....

Just because something isnt written in the rules doesnt mean that its OK to do.

Its extremely hypocritical to pick and choose what you can and cannot do.

You ARE a smart cat Erik. We all realize that but sometimes that big ol brain of yours gets going & you look for the holes in the rules...which is fine but claiming that because there's no specific rule outlining what is or isnt a legal attempt, what is or isnt defined as the end of said attempt etc is reaching IMO. I say common sense because MOST people understand & will agree without a written rule that if you enter a gate then back out...thats your 1st attempt. Once you enter the gates again from ANY direction...thats attempt 2.

I dont necessarily look for holes in the rules. I look at an obstacle and try to make them with any tools I have on hand. To be able to pull my car into a gate only getting 1 rear tire in and then repositioning "while staying in the gate" and backing 3/4 tires through the gate is just as crazy to me as what I did in the video. Its legal according to everything everybody has said in here though.

If you go back to the start of me asking I simply wanted to know the definition of entering a gate and when it needs to be done. People have answered based on opinion and I am good with that. Lets roll with it. I am not pushing that it should be legal but actually quite the opposite. I just dont understand why you can enter the gate in any sense of the word and then reverse some or even most of the car in the wrong direction and thats ok.

In the post to Rowdy above, even sticking to everybodies rules, I can get 3/4 tires going through the gate in the wrong direction and thats fine. Would I ever do it? No, because people would say its illegal based on feeling rather than the rules. Well, actually, there may be a couple of people that know the rules well enough to say "he didnt break any rules, ok, legal". But then there is a handfull that will say "I just dont think he should be able to even though there is no rule breaking". See the problem? Just like going under a gate, its all based off feeling and opinion. If the rules were firm, we would not have this problem.

In 801 there are a couple of people who dont like the idea that you cannot float a gate while getting progress but you can straddle and correct yourself. They choose to judge themselves a different way. Thats fine. Lets all just figure our own rules out and judge completely different because everything needs to be decided on how we feel about it rather than facts. You feel that you can go above and below gates, right? Well some dont. Lets judge different on that too. I guarantee if I see a line that goes below a gate that I will have to ask if I can even do it and I have no idea what the answer will be.

Nabils example would be MUCH more questionable in my mind since he never left the gates...which makes it...say it with me class...THE SAME ATTEMPT, NOT 2. "thumbsup"

JD

I knew I should have not shown the video for that reason. Erase it from your mind. I could possibly make another that does the same exact thing only I stay in the gate. I didnt know what peoples definitions would be at the time so the video is different than it would be now. Even with peoples definitions, I could still do the same sort of moves and problems. It would just make people feel a bit better about it but I am sure they would still judge with feeling rather than fact.

 

[Erik D_lux]

yessir I believe this is what Nabil was describing...

If you take my video and remove the u turn, thats basically what I did with the exceptions that I got my rear entered and my car left the gate. Knowing the definitions, I could have done it this way and it would have been easier.

I could have entered the gate with my driver front, rear burned/whatever needed until I was squared up, drove the wrong direction, back flip and progress.

 

[HARDKNOCKZ]

You're right...I did not have an official say as a marshall & you & I both know THAT story but I DID have people ask me & I gave an OPINION.

JD

 

[krawlfreak]

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)
Illustration A



seems so damn straight forward to me.

 

[Erik D_lux]

seems so damn straight forward to me.

Ok, so is this legal or illegal?

 

[ROWDY RACING]

Ok, so is this legal or illegal?

Illegal

 

[Erik D_lux]

Because?

 

[ROWDY RACING]

Because?

Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction

 

[Erik D_lux]

Progress is awarded when during the same attempt

I see one single attempt

and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate.

In the intended course direction one tire from each axle goes through. Even though Ittys drawing shows him as floating, lets pretend the drawing shows him going cleanly though for arguments sake so, all 4 make it though in the intended direction, left to right when he back flips.

To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction

I think that covers every situation?

If youre saying that the 3 tires cannot go the opposite direction even though the one is in the gate, then I dont see why you can straddle with the front, back the tire through that straddled and that is not the exact same thing whether its 1 tire or 3.

 

[krawlfreak]

Ok, so is this legal or illegal?

at the moment i would say legal.... and here is why.

1st attempt:
he entered the gate in the right direction, he then manuvered over the gate , not coming in contact with the gate itself, while still in the gate and exited the gate.
this is assuming that he completley exited the gate ( past the front plane with the reaar tires)

2nd attempt:

after he exited the gate, he climbs the wall, before re-entering the gate while backfliping through it in the right direction.

gate cleared, no points given, as long as gate was not touched at any time and assuming all four tires went through the gates and not over them.

keep in mind erik, this is not what you did in the video.

 

[ROWDY RACING]

The rear enters in the wrong direction before the back flip. Both the front AND rear must enter from the correct direction in the same attempt.

 

[ittybitty]

To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction

and his question is coming from this...everyone keeps repeating the rules saying "during the same attempt..." At what point is the attempt over? If the front tire stays within the gate, he has never left the gate. This would be equivalent to the example of attempting a steep uphill gate with very low traction where your rig enters the gate, and then slides backwards. In this example you have "entered or attempted" the gate and then your front tires have moved through the gate in the "WRONG" direction as you slide back down.

What is happening in my animation is very similar to the uphill scenario. Since the front tires enter the gate, and NEVER leave or reverse through it, but instead the rear axle comes through it prior to either flipping or just turning around and driving through it in the "intended course direction".



I understand how we've always judged things...and it has always "made sense" BUT rules are always open to interpretation...and this is simply another interpretation that needs to be clarified with a clearer and more specific rule.

 

[Erik D_lux]

keep in mind erik, this is not what you did in the video.

Youre 100% right. If you read back, this is why I wanted definitions before the video.

At the time, I had no idea what definitions we would put on something like this.

You guys are saying you need to enter a gate on every attempt, fine.

You guys are saying you cannot leave the gate or you need to re enter, fine.

Those rules or ideas are not written anywhere nor defined. I feel like I know the rules pretty well and its all up to personal interpretation and opinion to figure those two aspects out. Like I just said, I am fine with those interpretations, lets roll.

Had I known these interpretations and additions the the rules, I could have easily driven it that way and made the video that way.

The rear enters is the wrong direction before the back flip.

I will let you and Krawl argue it out then. :lmao:

 

[krawlfreak]

The rear enters in the wrong direction before the back flip. Both the front AND rear must enter from the correct direction in the same attempt.

i think this situation is the quirk.

you can enter a gate in the right direction and do whatever you want as far as manuevering inside said gate. he could flip twist ar whatever while inside the gate to cause him to end up in the wrong direction in the gate,

but his exit of the gate is no different than pulling into a gate then reversing out of a gate ( in this situation)

the key is if he completly exits the gate reguardless of direction he is now on his second attempt at the gate that is cleared clean as he re-enters the gate flipping through it.

 

[ROWDY RACING]

I will let you and Krawl argue it out then. :lmao:

I am not arguing with anyone.

 

[ittybitty]

at the moment i would say legal.... And here is why.

1st attempt:
He entered the gate in the right direction, he then manuvered over the gate , not coming in contact with the gate itself, while still in the gate and exited the gate.
This is assuming that he completley exited the gate ( past the front plane with the reaar tires)

2nd attempt:

After he exited the gate, he climbs the wall, before re-entering the gate while backfliping through it in the right direction.

Gate cleared, no points given, as long as gate was not touched at any time and assuming all four tires went through the gates and not over them.

Keep in mind erik, this is not what you did in the video.

Yes...this is what he's been trying to get at. Nabil's idea really provided some clearer wording on what was being described earlier.

 

[krawlfreak]

Youre 100% right. If you read back, this is why I wanted definitions before the video.

At the time, I had no idea what definitions we would put on something like this.

You guys are saying you need to enter a gate on every attempt, fine.

You guys are saying you cannot leave the gate or you need to re enter, fine.

Those rules or ideas are not written anywhere nor defined. I feel like I know the rules pretty well and its all up to personal interpretation and opinion to figure those two aspects out. Like I just said, I am fine with those interpretations, lets roll.

Had I known these interpretations and additions the the rules, I could have easily driven it that way and made the video that way.



I will let you and Krawl argue it out then. :lmao:

definition is here.

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)
Illustration A

 

[ROWDY RACING]

i think this situation is the quirk.

you can enter a gate in the right direction and do whatever you want as far as manuevering inside said gate. he could flip twist ar whatever while inside the gate to cause him to end up in the wrong direction in the gate,

but his exit of the gate is no different than pulling into a gate then reversing out of a gate ( in this situation)

the key is if he completly exits the gate reguardless of direction he is now on his second attempt at the gate that is cleared clean as he re-enters the gate flipping through it.

As soon as his rear entered from the wrong direction, stop time, repo, take your points, the back flip never happens.

 

[krawlfreak]

Yes...this is what he's been trying to get at. Nabil's idea really provided some clearer wording on what was being described earlier.

i dissagree, his video shows otherwise.