brushed vs. brushless video battle to settle the debate

[stevem50]

no troll- i just want to see what other people are running and how they actually perform. i can tell you what my trucks do and vice versa, but thats all talk. opinion that depends on me being able to accurately describe what i see.

my whole reason for this subject has never been one is absolutely better, more of a question of bang for the buck. i have only been on this forum for a year, but in rc for almost 30, and one thing i have found is opinion is only that. opinion. i want to SEE how these things run. SEE how they pull. then compare receipts and see who had to pay what to do it.

i am in the wrong place for this apparently, you guys SAY so, so that must be the truth. stick with what works for you, i will keep trying to figure out if something works better.

 

[stevem50]

and here in maryland the "comp scene" has dissolved into nothing. the closest we had was one weekend in west pennsylvania this year. one...., in another state..., 250 miles away. and there wasnt moa's to be seen. i have all but written them off, i dont see them around here too much and frankly didnt give them a thought when i suggested this. which is more common, a 12 year old kid with a dingo or a 40 year old guy with 5 grand wrapped up in his berg?

youtube was suggested for those of us who dont live next door to rc4wd's headquarters and dont get too much in person time large around a variety of rc crawlers and scalers. im my area, there are maybe 10-12 guys who come out regularly, and most are scx,wraith,or bruiser based with a single brushed motor, and if you want to see how something new works, you are footing the bill and are taking your chances

 

[JK Krawler]

My 2 cents,it boils down to driving style.Can most drive a 1:1 like they drive their scale?The first time i came out to a comp to watch some friends,i found myself driving a scale rig.No matter what set up or how big is that motor,it still comes down to can you drive it

 

[C*H*U*D]

Another thing you need to think about is expense. Is a sensored brushless necessary for the casual crawling most people do?

I'll agree that in a lot of situations, a BL setup is a great option. Especially with a lot of the faster "Rock Racing/FOFF/Bashing" style of trucks people are building. But for a lot people, brushed is the way to go.

I love my MambaMax Pro/Brushless EXO, but I would not want to pay that kind of money for all my trucks.

 

[stevem50]

imo mamba well known for quality, but is a bit overrated, my wraith's esc was $35 and motor $32, back when i built it, its was a "let me try the cheap chinese knockoff out in a truck that is going to get abused".it was cheap enough that i didnt care if it broke. 3 years later after mud, water, more water, and more mud it has proven itself. i have since gone with the same setup in my last 5 trucks. i had mmp in my revo and it was wicked fast, but wasnt impressed with performance per dollar. the hobbywing/tacon combo is worth checking into if youre on a budget

 

[C*H*U*D]

Well, I'd be interested in watching the video if you can get enough people in the same place at the same time.

I think that it should be done with similar trucks though. Putting a brushless Wraith up against a brushed 1.55 SCX wouldn't tell us much.

It would be really cool if you could have a brushed and BL setup in comparable trucks. 2 SCX's, 2 Wraiths, 2 AX-10's, etc. That would actually be pretty interesting.

 

[stevem50]

the videos would all need to be accessable on a page of common links... that way i can put mine, you yours, random guy in idaho.. etc.then compare numbers. mine will drag 40lbs, climb the incline in 38 seconds, and run a scale quarter in 4.6 seconds(all numbers are just examples, not real)

so we can see an average trail truck with johnson 540 can on 7.2v did it this time, dewalt motor on 12.6 this time, 1000kv brushless this time, etc...

i thought it would be cool to bring the "true street" style challenge to a smaller scale. in 1:1 its a run whatcha brung format, open to anything. only rule is, no popping the hood once you start.

not a "comp crawler" shoot-out, more of a "hey, i need a new motor for my trailfinder" decision. so that when the post of "what motor do i buy?" pops up, there will be a page of videos to help him or her decide. i would think the motor sellers here on the forum would get behind this to maybe find some new buyers after their product did well.....

 

[stevem50]

Well, I'd be interested in watching the video if you can get enough people in the same place at the same time.

I think that it should be done with similar trucks though. Putting a brushless Wraith up against a brushed 1.55 SCX wouldn't tell us much.

It would be really cool if you could have a brushed and BL setup in comparable trucks. 2 SCX's, 2 Wraiths, 2 AX-10's, etc. That would actually be pretty interesting.

thats what im talking about- and since i dont have 2 of each, between all of us here we do.

we all dont need to be in the same place, just post them to the same page, thats where the standardized format comes into play. as long as there is no editing, we will have no cheating

 

[Calderwood]

Many of us, such as myself, that have been addicted rc for many years have had both brushed and brushless setups in the same rig at different points. Those of us that have, all know the same thing. If you want to go slow and have the best low speed resolution, you go brushed. If you want explosive torque, speed faster than a jog, and zero upkeep, then you go higher kv sensored brushless. If you go brushed you can't have the speed. If you go brushless you can't have the resolution and still have the big wheel speed.

 

[stevem50]

Funny you say both set ups in the same truck... My bruiser is a useless pig with brushed motors( I've tried the 750 can, Titan 775, and a variety of 540 size) but on brushless it's a beast. An 1100 kv had the power to move the beast where brush motors stall and burn


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[Meatwad]

Could be a multitude of maintenance reasons/broken parts that causes motors to burn, while the bl motor had the torque to power through. That was the reason I brought up independent bench testing of motors and typical torque requirements of different weight/gearing/models of rigs if you choose to shoot vid.

 

[stevem50]

on that side note- out of all the brushed motors i tried in the old girl, the original 750 tamiya can had the best power, albeit the slowest, and i do mean slow... the traxxas motors i tried were new, and didnt have the grunt to get it over my log pile test area on my property. it would dig in and bind with the 775 titan, the 20t 550 can wouldnt even get that far. in comes rc4wd 540 adapter plate and tacon 1100kv b/l... she is in a whole new ballgame and got the power to clear damn near anything i aimed it at. i dont run it much because the motor is strong enough to turn the 25 year old transmission into shrapnel..

 

[stevem50]

Could be a multitude of maintenance reasons/broken parts that causes motors to burn, while the bl motor had the torque to power through. That was the reason I brought up independent bench testing of motors and typical torque requirements of different weight/gearing/models of rigs if you choose to shoot vid.

now how would you suggest we bench test?
i dont have a dyno, or access to one. what i can do is math, i can calculate horsepower after establishing weight/distance/time... but math isnt fun, and dragging heavy stuff and climbing over stuff is, haha

i thought about the using a torque wrench idea you mentioned, but that seems like it is a direct power to stall situation and seems like a motor killer, i dont know how to incorporate a slipper clutch?

 

[Meatwad]

now how would you suggest we bench test?
i dont have a dyno, or access to one. what i can do is math, i can calculate horsepower after establishing weight/distance/time... but math isnt fun, and dragging heavy stuff and climbing over stuff is, haha

i thought about the using a torque wrench idea you mentioned, but that seems like it is a direct power to stall situation and seems like a motor killer, i dont know how to incorporate a slipper clutch?

Your best bet would be to read around about motor testing as I don't know enough. And maybe try contacting both sides of motor-fu here on rcc... Mr. Holmes and Mr. Brood.

A simple approach is to find a way to mechanically load them with a constant load per motor, that's why I mentioned something like a torque wrench.

 

[6sharky9]

on that side note- out of all the brushed motors i tried in the old girl, the original 750 tamiya can had the best power, albeit the slowest, and i do mean slow... the traxxas motors i tried were new, and didnt have the grunt to get it over my log pile test area on my property. it would dig in and bind with the 775 titan, the 20t 550 can wouldnt even get that far. in comes rc4wd 540 adapter plate and tacon 1100kv b/l... she is in a whole new ballgame and got the power to clear damn near anything i aimed it at. i dont run it much because the motor is strong enough to turn the 25 year old transmission into shrapnel..

Pic of your log pile?????

Its going to be difficult to make somewhat fair comparisons.
Surfaces are different in many areas.

The best chance of a fair test comparison will be from someone who has an assortment of power set ups and gears and do the test unbiased.

Too many variable come into play with testing from all over such as different enviroments (temps/surfaces/Altitiudes etc...).

No doubt a brushless is capable of more power and enough torque to rip rigs to shreds but its not about who can make the most power..Its about controllability and finesse and in most cases of trail running or rock crawling that's what most will want...Yes; there are trails or courses or scenarios where you can use a lot more speed and in a timed event the brushless can fit the bill.

A fair comparison of something is when all is exactly the same but the one item or items in question.

If you put a 13.5 which is claimed an equivalent of a 27T brushed motor with all else being the same.(ie battery power/gearing/tires/vehicle weight etc...the brushless will not win out against that brushed motor for the majority of trail/crawling use...You have to go with steeper gearing for a reason with a brushless to get the torque the brushed has at lower rpm.

They both have advantages but brushless is not the holy grail of power.

Why would HH and Brood invest so much engineering and development into brushed motors if brushless was such a superior source of power?

Brushless is getting better with age and development but still loses out to a brushed motor for bottom end grunt.

If you like brushless then simply use that to power your rig and be happy in your mind thinking is a better power source..I do with my brushed set up..so its ok we all like what we like..but a fair comparison is going to be a difficult task with so many variables that come into play,,, but good luck with the comparison..Ill be there with my 2 cents on the results.


Stock AE2 ESC,Custom27T brushed mod motor,2s lipo (25c) power with 16t pinion/87t spur running 1.9 ripsaws in a 6lb SCX10 is my set up and I would put it against a 13.5 brushless set up anyday on the trail with all else being equal.

If you want a drag race comparison ill give it my best shot with bumping my timing up and re gearing but I wouldn't be surprised if I lost and happily give congrats on the win.

 

[TacoCrawler]

" its not about who can make the most power..Its about controllability and finesse "

I'm with this ^ and prolly everything else was typed.

as for the rest of this hater thread
I'm out

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

on that side note- out of all the brushed motors i tried in the old girl, the original 750 tamiya can had the best power, albeit the slowest, and i do mean slow... the traxxas motors i tried were new, and didnt have the grunt to get it over my log pile test area on my property. it would dig in and bind with the 775 titan, the 20t 550 can wouldnt even get that far. in comes rc4wd 540 adapter plate and tacon 1100kv b/l... she is in a whole new ballgame and got the power to clear damn near anything i aimed it at. i dont run it much because the motor is strong enough to turn the 25 year old transmission into shrapnel..

None of those brushed motors you listed compare to a good, purpose built crawler motor. What you tested were cheap, sealed can units. It is not surprising that the Tacon outpowered them.

 

[jsattle]

DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOKES! Plain and simple. Peace Out!

 

[Crawl Space]

on that side note- out of all the brushed motors i tried in the old girl, the original 750 tamiya can had the best power, albeit the slowest, and i do mean slow... the traxxas motors i tried were new, and didnt have the grunt to get it over my log pile test area on my property. it would dig in and bind with the 775 titan, the 20t 550 can wouldnt even get that far. in comes rc4wd 540 adapter plate and tacon 1100kv b/l... she is in a whole new ballgame and got the power to clear damn near anything i aimed it at. i dont run it much because the motor is strong enough to turn the 25 year old transmission into shrapnel..

Is that the tacon bigfoot 10? Brushless outrunners for sure have a ton of low end torque. Those lower turn motors you mentioned aren't known for being torque monsters - lower turns = less efficiency and lower torque. No surprise they burned up.

I think the quality of the brushed motor makes a huge difference, perhaps more than the difference in quality of brushless motors. It would be interesting to see a comparison with the following categories:

1. Unit price
2. Required esc price
3. Weight
4. Operating voltage range
5. # of turns
6. Efficiency
7. Peak/avg current draw
8. Throttle resolution
9. Startup resolution
10. Optimal gearing operating temp range
11. Peak torque output/ stall-out torque
12. Drag brake strength
13. Maintenance cost (time and $$)
14. Projected longevity
15. Resistance to the elements

I'm probably forgetting some important qualities to measure, but something along these lines would provide a solid data pool for people to make their own decision "thumbsup"

 

[stevem50]

ill click and post a pic tomorrow in the daylight... it is nice to have a constant to test power and suspension setting before heading out on a run. its a nice jagged pile with a few skinny bridges and some tight turn arounds.

my whole point from the begining was trying to dispell this "brushless motors cog and are useless" myth. they are not the be all and end all powerplant, a 55t brushed motor makes more torque than you will ever need-yes, but a properly geared b/l will make the same or more power and give you speed too.

this started when i replied with a suggestion to a post about motor opinions and the next post suggested i was an idiot who doesnt know what cogging and stalling were. then proceded to tell me how a brushed 27t makes more torque than a brushless and then if you were dumb enough to run brushless you need sensored or nothing. so i post we make a standard basic test course and we all run our trucks so people picking a motor can make an informed decision after watching a 2 minute video on a similar motor to what they were thinking about.

apparently this is a hot button issue that will need to remain opinion until we can all put opinion aside and run the course and SEE what happens

the only reply i got in this whole mess willing to take part is chud, ever other one tells the same thing- brushed is better cause i said so, so its not worth doing.