2013 Rules

[The Violator]

Re: 2013 Judges list

You should just ask me since I wrote 75% of the questions ;-)

Thanks for the effort...I know you will get 100% in no time"thumbsup"

The question I have was on the 10 gate the car gets hung up and times out with 3 tires through but not the 4th. I would have called it no progress, but the correct answer was progress with 10 point penalty. I thought if you do not make it through, you did not make it through.

 

[Krawler Kev]

Re: 2013 Judges list

One tire from each axles has "progressed" the gate hence forth the progress would be given, but all four tires did not make it through the gate hence the 10 point penalty.

Just my interpretation."thumbsup"

 

[Fishmaxx]

Re: 2013 Judges list

One tire from each axles has "progressed" the gate hence forth the progress would be given, but all four tires did not make it through the gate hence the 10 point penalty.

Just my interpretation."thumbsup"

Yes...no different than taking the last gate were only 2x tires went through.

 

[The Violator]

Re: 2013 Judges list

shouldn't the driver call the fact they want the gate. Plus if time ran out, or the gate points them out then no progress. Plus it brings into effect the idea that you can get penalized for a gate you never touched, yet the new rules say if you don't touch a gate its no gate.

There are a couple other questions one where the car is sitting parallel to the gates with 2 tires on either side. the correct answer on the test is no progress, but now with this it would be progress. and the picture that show when is a gate progressed the correct answer shows all 4 tires through the gate.

I understand the idea, but in my mind the driver should have to call it out ( they want the gate and therefore the progress), and before they timed out.

 

[Illeagle]

Re: 2013 Judges list

There are a couple other questions one where the car is sitting parallel to the gates with 2 tires on either side. the correct answer on the test is no progress, but now with this it would be progress. and the picture that show when is a gate progressed the correct answer shows all 4 tires through the gate.

Thats the one that threw me off. It seemed to me when I was taking the test those two answers directly contradicted each other. (the gate 10 3 tires through and the parallel with 2 tires through).

So which is correct? Its making it hard for me to get 100% :mrgreen:

 

[The Violator]

Re: 2013 Judges list

Thats the one that threw me off. It seemed to me when I was taking the test those two answers directly contradicted each other. (the gate 10 3 tires through and the parallel with 2 tires through).

So which is correct? Its making it hard for me to get 100% :mrgreen:

They are probably both right, but in different situations. I would never call someone stuck with 3 tires through for progress and gate unless they touched the gate ( or at least asked for the gate in order to get progress, but even then I think I would have called a marshal up until now) . But I guess now you can. It really seems like the idea you can take a gate and get progress being twisted into something else. I might not agree with it, and I am not sure I have seen it happen, I will call it accordingly.

 

[Illeagle]

Ted found a test question with a incorrect answer...moved to Rules thread.

which question had the incorrect answer and has it been corrected just for future reference?

 

[Fishmaxx]

Sorry for the confusion guys. I the process cleaning up the test to reflect the current rules I made a mistake. I am having trouble accessing the admin control panel in the software. as soon as I do I will fix it. See attached photo.

A) is the Correct Answer.

 

[Fishmaxx]

The ultra simple explanation is...

1) 2x Tire from the same side though always equals progress.

2) Not getting all 4x tire between the gates is a Penalty

In the example above its progress, and depending on what happens next there may or may not be a penalty.

In the 3 tires through when the clock runs out question the driver made progress (explanation #1), but never got 4x tires through so its a penalty.(explanation #2)


I know some of these questions seem odd, but they all happen at comps I was competing. I couldn't make this junk up :shock:

 

[Erik D_lux]

Funny, I just took the test and got the gate 10 answer wrong too!

Thanks for the clarification, there were 3 questions I think that had the similar question. 1 was the gate 10 situation, 1 was the one from each side and there was another. I will go back and see if I can find it.

Also, I dont understand this question:

"Driver straddles a gate marker that they had been called for a touch penalty "

 

[Erik D_lux]

Ok, found them.


For this question, I think the answer should technically be "yes" progress should be given. It is not known whether it is "cleared" yet though without a penalty.

If youre going to give progress for gate 10 if 3 tires go through, shouldnt you give progress for gate 7 in the same instance?

 

[Olle P]

1) 2x Tire from the same side though always equals progress.

But rule 1.10 says that progress is awarded only after the gate is cleared.
Rule 7.2.1 says that all four wheels must be past the gate before it's cleared.
So if you can't get all of the wheels past (but not necessarily through) the gate there is no progress. Right?

Here's how I read and apply the rules:
- If the crawler doesn't get the fourth wheel past the last gate then that gate isn't cleared. (Rule 7.2.1)
- If the last gate isn't cleared the course isn't completed. (Rule 4.8 )
- Because the gate wasn't cleared when the time ran out the result should be a DNF (for running out of time before finishing the course) with neither progress nor penalties awarded for the last gate (since it was never cleared).

Am I right or wrong?

 

[Fishmaxx]

Ok, found them.


For this question, I think the answer should technically be "yes" progress should be given. It is not known whether it is "cleared" yet though without a penalty.


Back in the old days we had less of a need to be as precise in our phrasing. Progress and cleared were used interchangeably, and 99.9% of the time thats ok. Overtime we discovered that was a bad idea.

what can I say ...old habits die hard.

When I get admin back access I will work on the phrasing

If youre going to give progress for gate 10 if 3 tires go through, shouldnt you give progress for gate 7 in the same instance?


In the Gate 7 question it says the driver pointed out. Can't be given Progress for a gate if your pointed out on it.

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)


1.8 - DNF (Did Not Finish): (40 pts): are given anytime a driver cannot complete a course for any reason.
(Time expired, Point-Out, Vehicle not Repairable, etc) Progress points are awarded for each gate completed.

My logic for answer on this question is....

Only 2x tires from same side through = Progress + 10 point penalty.

4x tire trough (without touching) = Progress + No penalty

Shouldn't a driver that gets 3x tires through a gate get at least the same score as a driver that only got x2 tires through.

Its assumed the driver takes the 10 penalty before time runs out.(Just like the driver runs over a gate to finish before time expires)

Like I said some these questions are a little twisted, but the all have precedence of decisions made in the past. I'll be happy to add some wording to the rules better clarify....suggestions are welcome"thumbsup"

 

[JeremyH]

Its assumed the driver takes the 10 penalty before time runs out.

At what point is that penalty assessed?

I see your edit now, but that still doesn't really clarify. Any judge clearly knows when to assess the penalty of a gate that has been touched.....but when is the penalty in question given out? IMO, in the picture above (question 25), the driver is still attempting to cleanly progress the gate....and if time runs out, then he hasn't progressed the gate.

 

[Fishmaxx]

At what point is that penalty assessed?

When the clock runs out its assumed the drivers wants to take a -10 penalty instead of a -40 point penalty. I personally don't see a reason for someone to declare anything by a specific moment.

Forcing a driver to declare "Finish" before the clock runs out just complicates the situation.

 

[Fishmaxx]

IMO, in the picture above (question 25), the driver is still attempting to cleanly progress the gate....and if time runs out, then he hasn't progressed the gate.

1.10 - Progress bonus (-2 progress point): shall be awarded to drivers for each gate after it has been cleared during the attempt of a course. All gate penalties are assessed and given before a progress bonus is awarded. Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate. To receive the progress bonus without a gate penalty, all four tires must pass completely through the gate during the same attempt and in the intended course direction (See Illustration A). Progress points are deducted from the total course score. Once a driver has pointed out, no further Progress points will be awarded. (See 1.5 for examples of Gate penalties)


The vehicle has progressed the gate, but has not fulfilled the without penalty requirement.
In this situation 3x tires through should be at least equal to 2x tires getting through....not less.

 

[JeremyH]

I dont think a driver should be allowed to declare finish...let alone be forced to declare it.

It is fairly obvious when a penalty is assessed when a driver touches a gate....not so much in this situation.


I dont think this is a good ruling on this situation at all....it leaves a lot of open ends and I can foresee a lot of arguments with judges on this type of situation.

 

[JeremyH]

Fish, yes, I see that rule.....I have read that rule. But the final gate, the application is different. If you are going to go by that rule on the finish gate, then as SOON as the driver gets his truck in the position in the picture of question 25, then the judge should be required to stop time because the course is now finished since progress on gate 10 has now been awarded.

 

[WAM]

My logic for answer on this question is....

Only 2x tires from same side through = Progress + 10 point penalty.

4x tire trough (without touching) = Progress + No penalty

Shouldn't a driver that gets 3x tires through a gate get at least the same score as a driver that only got x2 tires through.

Its assumed the driver takes the 10 penalty before time runs out.(Just like the driver runs over a gate to finish before time expires)

Like I said some these questions are a little twisted, but the all have precedence of decisions made in the past. I'll be happy to add some wording to the rules better clarify....suggestions are welcome"thumbsup"

No one (except Olle) is addressing the 7.2.1 wording that says while only two wheels are required for progress, it's not awarded until all FOUR wheels have cleared the gate. The car which timed out in the finish gate never got four wheels clear of the gate. This has nothing to do with whether it was two or four wheels through the markers. It has to do with not awarding progress.

If you don't mean for this to be true then strike 7.2.1.


BTW, the word "clear" is causing confusion. As written it means PAST the gate, not THRU the gate in 7.2.1.

 

[Fishmaxx]

It is fairly obvious when a penalty is assessed when a driver touches a gate....not so much in this situation.


I dont think this is a good ruling on this situation at all....it leaves a lot of open ends and I can foresee a lot of arguments with judges on this type of situation.

I agree its not an obvious situation, but I disagree its going to create 'a lot of arguments". I have only seen the situation twice in my years of crawling.

Once you noodle through the situation and clear the clutter its very simple situation.

Break it down to the basics

Before the clock ran out the driver got 2x tires through for progress, but did not get all tire though. Progress + 10 point penalty.

In this example and most other situations where the other 2x tire is irrelevant.