Do you believe in God,Heaven or Hell?

[jlwatchman]

An eternally burning hell and endless torture is not scriptural. When the Bible was translated over from Greek, some people thought it was a good scare tactic to bring people to God. Of course, that is the wrong way to go about doing things and the theology stuck with mainstream Christianity.

For most people, hell is simply one of a few four letter words, which they hear on a daily basis in the rage of rush hour traffic or the heated scenes of a Hollywood movie. To others though, the word hell brings back vivid childhood imaginations of an eternal roasting pit for humans which they heard about from Sunday school or from a fiery televangelist. No matter which category of people you fall into, it seems as though many, if not all of us would be better off if the concept of hell just didn’t exist at all. In fact some, in an attempt to divest their minds of such a fearful idea, make the choice to disbelieve in the idea of hell altogether, which often leads to the next step of choosing to disbelieve in a God who would create such a place.

So what do we do with this terrifying idea of hell? Do we throw it and God out altogether? Do we try to ignore it and its implications about who God is? Do we hope against all hope that our Sunday school teachers were somehow mistaken? In this Bible tract, we will choose another option which is to simply study what the Bible really has to say about hell, and in so doing you’ll find that the truth will set you free from the various myths about this fearful teaching.

Interestingly, the Bible gives us explicit information on when hell would begin and where it would be located. As you might have guessed, misconceptions abound on these two points. In Matthew 13:49 Jesus speaks plainly saying, “So shall it be at the end of this world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” According to this text and many others like it,1 the flames of hell will not exist until the end of the world. That’s right! Your loved ones are not being burned alive as you read this tract.

Next, we see that the apostle Peter gives us clear information on where hell will be located. Speaking of the end of the world he says, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”2 The prophet Zephaniah also speaks of, “the whole land,” being “devoured by the fire of His jealousy.”3 Here we see that hell is not some giant chasm of flames in the center of the earth; rather, it will be located right here on earth at the end of the world devouring “the whole land.”

Perhaps the most important thing to understand about hell can be found in the famous text John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Here Jesus clearly states that it is the believers who are the ones that live eternally, not the wicked. What!? The wicked don’t live eternally writhing in flames? Correct!

The wicked are to burn only until there is nothing left to burn. Malachi brings this point out well: “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”4 In fact, just so we could be sure that he was speaking literally about the utter destruction of the wicked he goes on to say, “’You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts.”4 Also, not only will the wicked be destroyed completely in the flames of hell but so will Satan and his wicked angels according to Matt. 25:41 and Rev. 20:10. Contrary to popular belief, God plans to destroy the forces of darkness, not put them in charge of an eternal fire pit in the center of the earth!

But some might say that there are other texts like Rev. 14:11 and 20:10 which point out that the wicked burn eternally. Well, the Bible also says that the prophet Samuel would abide before the Lord in the sanctuary forever,5 and that the bars of the earth closed about Jonah forever6 when he was thrown into the sea. Now it is clear from scripture itself that neither of these events lasted forever. What we see here are two examples of the Bible using the term, “forever” to mean a time of indefinite duration where the beginning and ending of that time depend on the nature of the person, circumstance, or thing to which it is applied. An example in our day which is similar is when a man and woman commit to their marriage vow forever. When they do so, the term “forever” simply means as “long as they live.” So how do we know how long “forever” is for those burning in hell? Simple: other passages on the topic explain that “forever” in this instance means until the wicked are utterly consumed. Context is key!

In light of this simple Bible study, one might ask, “How is it that these myths about hell could even exist?” The truth is that this false teaching has permeated Christianity not just because it is a good scare tactic for church attendance, but because our adversary the devil loves to teach lies about God. In Revelation 12:9 Satan is described as one who “deceives the whole world.” He deceives them about what? About God and His character. Yes, there are true and false teachings about God in this world. Truth is not a choice, as many would like to believe. Truth is a reality waiting to be discovered in the pages of Scripture. And the reality is that yes, “our God is a consuming fire,”7 to sin and sinners. But the Bible teaches that, rather than the wicked, it is the saint, “who walks righteously and speaks uprightly,” who will “dwell with the devouring fire” and “everlasting burnings.”8

That’s right! According to Matthew 25:31- 46, all humanity will one day encounter God, in whose presence “the hills melt, and the earth burns,”9 But only those who have repented of their sins and sought after God will be able to be protected in His fiery presence where they will dwell through all eternity. The wicked, on the other hand, will cease to exist and “be as though they had never been,”10 after they are “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”11 Friends, “God is love,”12 a love which is symbolized by fire. Solomon said God’s “love… hath a most vehement flame.” 13 As fire hardens clay but melts ice, so His fiery love will comfort the saint but consume the sinner.

 

[jlwatchman]

Using the Bible to prove that the Bible is true does not make any sense at all. And still, many people do that without realizing how ridiculous it is for people who don't believe in the Bible. That is like saying, I am the King of England because I say so. However, the Bible has very accurate prophecies written many years before the events came to pass. Many people don't hear this anymore from Christians because many Christians don't even read the Bible enough to understand them.

One way to test the validity of the Bible is to look at its prophecies. One of God’s claims is that He, through the Bible, can tell the future (Isaiah 46:9, 10). Examining the historical records of ancient Babylon in the book of Daniel will help answer the question of the Bible’s validity. Here we find a king named Nebuchadnezzar, a ruler written about not only in the Bible but other historical records. One night he had a troubling dream. When he awoke, however, he could not remember the dream - only that it haunted him. He summoned his wise men and commanded they tell him his dream and its interpretation. His wise men were baffled at this request. They said, “There is not a man on earth who can tell the king’s matter...” (Daniel 2:10-11). The king was infuriated and commanded that all the wise men in Babylon be killed (Daniel 2:12). This is where a Hebrew man named Daniel comes on the scene. Daniel had been taken as a captive to Babylon when he was only a teenager. Daniel was a believer in God. When the king’s court official, Arioch, told Daniel about the decree, Daniel went to the king and requested time to tell him his dream and the interpretation. The king agreed. Daniel went home and earnestly sought God for wisdom. God answered his entreaties and, “the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision” (Daniel 2:19).

The next morning Daniel went into the king’s throne room and revealed to him his dream. The king had seen a large statue. It was composed of five different sections. The head was of gold, the chest and arms of silver, the belly and thighs of bronze, the legs of iron, and the feet partly of iron and clay. Then a great stone struck the image and smashed it to pieces so it became like chaff which the wind carried away (Daniel 2:31-35). Daniel then told the king the dream’s meaning. The head of gold represented Babylon. The silver signified Medo-Persia; the bronze symbolized Greece. The legs of iron represented Rome. The feet and toes of iron mixed with clay represented the divided power of Rome, partly weak and partly strong. Just as iron does not mix with clay, these nations would not adhere together. The great stone that smashed the image represented the kingdom of God. “And...the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever” (Daniel 2:38-44).

Each of these predictions of the kingdoms represented by metal came true with unfailing accuracy. The first kingdom, Babylon, ruled the world from 605 to 539 B.C. The nation of the Medes and Persians governed from 539 to 331 B.C. The next empire, Greece, dominated from 331 to 168 B.C. The iron power of Rome ruled from 168 B.C. until A.D 476. The last kingdom, divided into many smaller kingdoms, represents the divided power of Rome, the modern nations of Europe, which still remain separate today. The Bible was pin point correct on all five kingdoms and what time they would arise!

Skeptics have suggested that Daniel’s predictions are false, his book being written at a much later time in history. Even if this were true, the fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain eight manuscripts from Daniel, the oldest dating to 125 BC (which itself is a copy of an earlier edition), shows that this prophecy was written hundreds of years before the dividing of Rome into the nations of modern Europe. This prophecy is just one example of hundreds which could be cited proving the Bible’s inspiration. Another concrete example is seen in the prophecy of Daniel chapter nine where the exact timing of Christ’s baptism and death were foretold hundreds of years in advance. Indeed, after an examination of valid evidence such as we have in the Biblical prophecies, we may conclude that God and the Bible can be fully trusted! Daniel chapter two shows us just how true and accurate these predictions are, which gives us the grounds to hold intelligent faith. The Bible is the inspired word of God and can be trusted as our guidebook in every circumstance. However, merely believing this information will make it just that - information. Belief alone has no saving power over our lives. We must be changed by our belief. It is of eternal importance to not only believe the Bible but allow it to change us. The Bible says that “even the demons believe—and tremble!” (James 2:19). God will take our lives and transform them into something beautiful if we let Him.

 

[Teng]

Say, here is a piece of Authentic one US dollar note, if you want to prove this is authentic note, you must use the authentic one US dollar note to prove itself. You just cannot use other thing to prove it. You cannot use a piece of newspaper or other notes to prove it. So does the word of God we Christian must use the bible to prove it. Because the bible is His very word. ;-)

 

[jlwatchman]

Say, here is a piece of Authentic one US dollar note, if you want to prove this is authentic note, you must use the authentic one US dollar note to prove itself. You just cannot use other thing to prove it. You cannot use a piece of newspaper or other notes to prove it. So does the word of God we Christian must use the bible to prove it. Because the bible is His very word. ;-)

And somebody from Africa would not care unless it is something they can relate to. That is like trying to prove to Christians who already believe. Christ was tactful in all His speech and actions. Is it not painfully blatant that using one source to prove itself has no reasonable persuasion? If that is the case, why are we not Catholic? Why are we not Jehovah's Witness? Why are we not Mormon? They too use their own sources to prove themselves right. Likewise, those who do not believe in the Bible see it the same way. The fact is, if God in the Bible is real and apart of the universe with everything being a work of His creation, the creation should (and it can) prove Him.

If an unbeliever wants evidence outside of the Bible to prove the Bible right, why withhold it (unless there is no evidence)? The fact is that THERE is evidence, and plenty of it outside of the Bible.

Christ did not come to save those who are already righteous but to bring all sinners to repentance.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

"Unbeliever" asserts that there was a loss of belief. Non-believer is more accurate.

You can "prove" the validity of the bible by using the same metrics you use to "prove" the falsity of other religions holy texts. Existence of text is not evidence of existence of the characters within. Otherwise, Harry Potter is or was a real, living and breathing person. Winnie the Pooh as well...

 

[jlwatchman]

"Unbeliever" asserts that there was a loss of belief. Non-believer is more accurate.

You can "prove" the validity of the bible by using the same metrics you use to "prove" the falsity of other religions holy texts. Existence of text is not evidence of existence of the characters within. Otherwise, Harry Potter is or was a real, living and breathing person. Winnie the Pooh as well...

Exactly, if it comes to evangelism, that is the reason why a non-believer razz: ) would see no difference between everything else...Muslim, Hindu, Islam, Buddhist, Scientology, Harry Potter, or Groot.

Now I completely believe in Biblical exegesis in the church for those who believe.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Chances are that if you are attending church or bible study, you aren't there for an objective examination of the text or belief at hand. You are probably there to further establish your already existing faith.

And yes, to a non-believer, it is all mythology. Without any pressure to believe what you are studying, it's much easy to find the threads that make it all unravel.

 

[Teng]

Christ did not come to save those who are already righteous but to bring all sinners to repentance.

Amen, Amen "thumbsup"

 

[DavidH]

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.*This is what the ancients were commended for by faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead. By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.*And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (Hebrews 11:1-6).

In that context, you seem to be using the word 'faith' as others would use the word 'gullibility'.

But, we have strayed from my previous post. Do you agree that belief is not something that is under one's conscious control?

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Is it not painfully blatant that using one source to prove itself has no reasonable persuasion? If that is the case, why are we not Catholic? Why are we not Jehovah's Witness? Why are we not Mormon? They too use their own sources to prove themselves right. Likewise, those who do not believe in the Bible see it the same way. The fact is, if God in the Bible is real and apart of the universe with everything being a work of His creation, the creation should (and it can) prove Him.

That is another important point. If the Bible were truly Gods divine word, one would have no choice but to see the truth in it and believe. The very text would transcend translation and interpretation. There would be no multitude of denominations, just a single, solitary line of belief.

One could argue that it was man that changed and manipulated the interpretations, and clearly that has happened, but what does that say of God and his chosen method of communication? Why would such an important message be placed in the care of completely untrustworthy stewards and distributed in an otherwise ordinary assemblage of text? How do YOU know that what you read and believe is what was originally intended? If you spend any amount of time at all researching the history of the Bible, it's easy to understand how it's been changed and manipulated right from the start. Again, you could blame mankind for that, but ultimately it lies at the feet of the deity that commissioned it...

 

[Teng]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Inspiration leaves a lot of room for improvisation.

 

[jlwatchman]

That is another important point. If the Bible were truly Gods divine word, one would have no choice but to see the truth in it and believe. The very text would transcend translation and interpretation. There would be no multitude of denominations, just a single, solitary line of belief.

One could argue that it was man that changed and manipulated the interpretations, and clearly that has happened, but what does that say of God and his chosen method of communication? Why would such an important message be placed in the care of completely untrustworthy stewards and distributed in an otherwise ordinary assemblage of text? How do YOU know that what you read and believe is what was originally intended? If you spend any amount of time at all researching the history of the Bible, it's easy to understand how it's been changed and manipulated right from the start. Again, you could blame mankind for that, but ultimately it lies at the feet of the deity that commissioned it...

That is a very good point. It is something I considered heavily before believing in Christ.

Even those who believe in Christ are not free from the struggle of pride. It is a slow lifetime process of what we call "sanctification"--to be dead to those raging emotions of defensiveness and bickering risen from self-justfication. When people are unwilling to let their ego down, they separate and create various groups and only talk to those who share their beliefs. This is how we have denominations. Christ was completely opposite, He was assaulted, mocked, scorned and never defended Himself.

In times past, Chrsitianity has indeed been a vehicle for corruption and violence. It has been blamed for incompetent government and the launching of world wars. Pastors, priests, and clerics have manipulated the spiritual needs of individuals for their own profit. Countries have been torn apart because of one religious sect battling another. In more ways than one, many of the accusations that have been brought against Christianity are correct. Many are hostile toward the church, but love Jesus. Many feel suspicious of membership and organization, but are open to the figure of Christ.

In fact, the Scriptures that He preached even predicted a false, corrupted Christianity to come in the future. It would cause global suffering and persecute those at odds with its teachings, which misrepresented God. It would “make war” with anyone that disagreed with it and “prevail against them,” ( Daniel 7:21 ). But despite the abuses of religion in the past and in the future, Jesus did not seek to destroy it, but to illuminate its true meaning.


Before His death on the cross, Jesus was brought before Pilate, a Roman ruler. When Pilate questioned Him regarding His arrest by Roman soldiers and the Jewish leaders, Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here,” ( John 18:36 ). Jesus taught that true religion was not about worldly success or personal gain, but something beyond this world.


What Jesus came to offer is a pure and genuine spirituality, a transcendent yet supremely practical way that not only addresses our human problems, but even solves Divine ones. How can a God that is all-powerful, all-present, and all- knowing allow for suffering? How does good deal with evil—with force, or with something else? Jesus’ solutions were something this world had never seen before. “My kingdom is not of this world.”

We know that the Bible is the infallible Word of God written by faulty human beings albeit inspired by God. Human language cannot possibly contain or express the words of God. Before I was a believer, I even thought, if He could just come down and show everybody, then nobody would have a choice but to believe. However, that is not His personality, but that of a dictator (and many Christians do disservice by depicting Him as one). Also, if we believe what we can clearly see, then there is no faith involved.

I agree with you in that everything that happened (with all the manipulations) can only happen if it was within God's will. That very much is the case. Knowing this, we are satisfied that the result that we're left with (the Bible as we have it) is sufficient for our faith.

If God is all-powerful and all-good, why do we suffer at all? It’s hard to imagine a bigger or more important question. And the fact is, we all ask it sooner or later.

It turns out there aren’t too many possible answers to choose from. Think about it. Either God is willing to prevent bad things from happening and can’t, in which case He is not allpowerful. Or God is able to prevent bad things from happening but He’s unwilling, in which case He is not good. Or, there’s a third option: God is both able and willing, but God is love, in which case there is a line that even Almighty God will not cross, and that line is our free will.
The Bible teaches the third position, and it is hard to imagine a better or more comforting answer. In short form, the human story, as told in the Bible, goes like this:

1. “God is love” (1 John 4:16). This is the basic, fundamental truth about who God is.
2. Therefore, “God created man in His own image” (Genesis 1:27). That is, God made humans with the capacity to love like God loves—by the exercise of free will.
3. And having been made with free will and therefore with the capacity for love, mankind has “sinned and fallen” from the glorious moral position of his original creation (Romans 3:23).
4. But there is good news: God is working out an incredible rescue plan by which any and all human beings who so desire will be “saved by grace…through faith” (Ephesians 2:8)—not by imposed power of force, but by the drawing, transforming power of God’s love. Love is the only way God can destroy evil and suffering while at the same time preserving our free will and with it our ability to love.

So the short answer to why we suffer is that we and other human beings—in the past and in the present—have chosen evil, and suffering is the result. It’s not fair. It’s not even reasonable. Sin is, by definition, unfair, unjust, hurtful and wrong. It’s downright brutal. But one thing it is not: it is not God’s will. God does not want us to suffer. But neither does He want to make us slaves or robots. To be human is to be free, and to be free means we can either choose good or evil with their respective effects.
The plain truth of the matter is that love cannot exist without free will, and free will by its very nature allows for bad choices to be made. So when we say that if God were good He would not allow anyone to ever do anything to cause pain to ones self or to anyone else, we simply are not making logical sense. The opposite is actually the case: precisely because God is good, He must allow us to make choices, both good and bad, and experience their outcomes. God always and only wants us to choose good, but He will not force us. God never wills evil or the pain that attends it. We do. Suffering is the byproduct of human choices, not God’s. And that is the sober reality of freedom.


And yet, God is so good that He cannot remain isolated or insulated from our suffering. According to the Bible, He is “touched with the feelings of our infirmities” (Hebrews 4:15 KJV). Speaking of God’s relation to human pain, the prophet Isaiah said, “In all their affliction He was afflicted” (Isaiah 63:9). So deeply loved by God is each member of the human race that Jesus basically said that anything we do for or against one another, it is as if we did those deeds to Him (Matthew 25:41-45). All suffering touches God. He is aware of all the tears we cry and the sorrow, grief or anguish behind them. King David sang of God’s deep sympathy: “You keep track of all my sorrows. You have collected all my tears in Your bottle. You have recorded each one in your book” (Psalm 56:8, New Living Translation). Love is like that. It suffers with those who suffer.

But here’s where the story gets even more amazing still. Not only does God feel our pain in His heart from a distance, He literally plunged down into our pain to make a way of ultimate escape from it. Jesus Christ came to, “…taste death for everyone” (Hebrews 2:9). “He has born our griefs and carried our sorrows…He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities…and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” (Isaiah 53:4-6). The greatest evidence of God’s love in the face of our pain is that He shares it. He has not left us to suffer alone. What makes the God of the Bible so totally incredible is that He came into our world and voluntarily experienced our suffering.


Whatever comes our way, there are two unchangeable truths we can be sure of: first, God is love and He loves us individually/personally. And second, God will ultimately make all wrongs right and heal the wounds this world has given us. When Jesus suffered and died on the cross, He proved that God loves fallen, suffering humanity more than His own life and He ensured that all who put their faith in Him will have a glorious future completely free from all suffering. The promise of the Bible, made sure by the death of Christ on the cross, is for us:


“God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Revelation 21:4)

 

[Teng]

Inspiration leaves a lot of room for improvisation.

No improvisation ;-)



The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psalms 12:6-7)

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

No improvisation ;-)



The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psalms 12:6-7)

The word of God is either inspired or a direct dictation. It can't be both at the same time.

And again, you are qualifying the Bible with the Bible...

 

[DavidH]

...

What I do see is a world of people who by their own choice generally ignore, discount, discredit, or else openly mock the God that created them.

I don't ever recall making a decision to be unconvinced of the validity of religion(s). Growing up they just seemed to be like a hobby that others did.

In His Creation (ie Nature)

"Nature" tells us that the process of life began billions of years ago, that there was no literal adam and eve, that there was no biblical global flood, that we and the other animals are not descended from a handful of surviving individuals. Am I to reject virtually all of modern biological sciences based on your religious texts?

they see overwhelming evidence of His existence, yet they choose not to acknowledge Him. Their hearts convict them of doing wrong, but rather than listen and repent, they harden their hearts and ignore their God-given conscience.

There is overwhelming evidence that the Earth is flat and hangs motionless in space while the cosmos revolves around it, but that evidence does not stand up to scrutiny either.

The picture I get is one of a scuba diver who goes out alone in shark-infested waters to search for treasures in a sunken ship someone told them was at a certain set of coordinates. Even when they find it not there, they keep diving, deluding themselves for the sake of finding the treasure. A storm comes and threatens to sweep their boat away, but they curse it and keep searching, until their boat sinks under the waves. Sharks begin to circle, and yet they keep diving. God sends them a cruise ship who tosses them a line attached to a life preserver, but they won't grab hold.

I've seen the life preserver analogy, that goes like this:

There is no cruise ship in sight. You are claiming to have a life preserver, but you can't produce it for me to inspect - I have to take it on "faith" that you have it.

You read from an ancient brochure, and the unbelievable claims it contains makes me doubt that it could float itself, never mind save a person. You admit that this device meets no scientific certifications, and cannot be tested, and has only third-hand anonymous stories that anyone has ever tried this alleged flotation device. You are also unshakeably certain that only your versions work, and that any similar devices offered by others are crap.

Your competition makes equivalent claims, with equal conviction, with similar lack of basis of support in observations of reality.

Allow me to lump you all together until you - any of you - can come up with something that you can demonstrate to float.

"This is how God showed His love among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him.*This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1 John 4:9-10).

So…God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.

Is this a work in progress?

 

[DavidH]

The word of God is either inspired or a direct dictation. It can't be both at the same time.

And again, you are qualifying the Bible with the Bible...

They are qualifying their interpretations of their bible with their bible.

And it has been my experience here that there is no position, however contrary to another, that someone cannot find support for in the bible.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

That is a very good point. It is something I considered heavily before believing in Christ.

I respect and appreciate that you've put real though into this. I honestly do.

Even those who believe in Christ are not free from the struggle of pride. It is a slow lifetime process of what we call "sanctification"--to be dead to those raging emotions of defensiveness and bickering risen from self-justfication. When people are unwilling to let their ego down, they separate and create various groups and only talk to those who share their beliefs. This is how we have denominations. Christ was completely opposite, He was assaulted, mocked, scorned and never defended Himself.

Indeed. Years ago I decided to explore in depth the things that I didn't believe, and couldn't do it honestly unless I kept pride and ego on a shelf. I'd like to think that they've remained on that shelf, but I do tend to bring them down and dust them off from time to time. But still, I'm much better for it.

Many are hostile toward the church, but love Jesus. Many feel suspicious of membership and organization, but are open to the figure of Christ.

I identify with this. Take away the religious connotations and he still had a good philosophy, much of which I agree with.

How does good deal with evil—with force, or with something else? Jesus’ solutions were something this world had never seen before. “My kingdom is not of this world.”

By default, God is not all good. He can't be. I would even go so far as to say that he has done more damage to mankind than the evil he is supposedly out to destroy.

I agree with you in that everything that happened (with all the manipulations) can only happen if it was within God's will. That very much is the case. Knowing this, we are satisfied that the result that we're left with (the Bible as we have it) is sufficient for our faith.

Which is another reason why I do not trust the Bible as an authority on what/who is good and what/who is not. Gods will seems to be to mess with his creation as much as possible.

If God is all-powerful and all-good, why do we suffer at all? It’s hard to imagine a bigger or more important question. And the fact is, we all ask it sooner or later.

It turns out there aren’t too many possible answers to choose from. Think about it. Either God is willing to prevent bad things from happening and can’t, in which case He is not allpowerful. Or God is able to prevent bad things from happening but He’s unwilling, in which case He is not good. Or, there’s a third option: God is both able and willing, but God is love, in which case there is a line that even Almighty God will not cross, and that line is our free will.

The omni-xxxxxx attributes is where I depart from scripture. It's like seeing an ad for a big juicy cheeseburger and ending up with a soggy, smashed, poorly assembled pile of bread and meat. A serious contemplation of an omni-deity returns results that in no way reflects the Judeo-Christian god.

I get your able and willing argument, but your immediate interjection of "God is love" to save it fails. If God will not cross the line of free will, then he is simply not willing, no matter how much he loves us. You cannot dissolve the responsibility of an almighty creator. We cannot be blamed for being poorly constructed. We are as we were made.

What makes the God of the Bible so totally incredible is that He came into our world and voluntarily experienced our suffering.

He wouldn't have needed to. Remember the omni-xxxxxx....

God will ultimately make all wrongs right and heal the wounds this world has given us. When Jesus suffered and died on the cross, He proved that God loves fallen, suffering humanity more than His own life and He ensured that all who put their faith in Him will have a glorious future completely free from all suffering. The promise of the Bible, made sure by the death of Christ on the cross, is for us:

I disagree with these ideas.

The world is his design. All the pain and suffering and wrongdoing are his. So far, he's recognized this and tried twice (quite poorly) to deal with what he had done.

The first time, he committed a massive act of genocide and destroyed nearly all life on the planet, because what do you do when you screw up royally? Wipe the slate clean and start over.

The second time, he decided that temporary suicide would be a better option. There was no real threat to him (again, omni-xxxxx), and at worst it was a very mild inconvenience, all things considered.

Which brings us to the Trinity, which was an escape route to monotheism for early Christians who wouldn't break their polytheistic ways...

 

[jlwatchman]

I respect and appreciate that you've put real though into this. I honestly do.

Hopefully I don’t mess up the formatting of this reply—these massive chunks of text are getting difficult to manage in the tiny text box! Instead of quoting the whole chunk again, I’ll try my best to remember.



I respect your use of reason in your questions, it is a breath of fresh air. Christ says to “come and let us reason together”. There is nothing reasonable when emotion is used as defense—the same reason why it doesn’t work when people hold up signs and yell “Believe in Jesus or go to hell!” It’s sad.



I’m also not going to try to convince anyone or win an argument or anything. I am just giving the answers for why myself, personally, believe in the Bible even when there exists all these questions. I believe what I believe because it is what I believe to be the truth. Another believes what they believe because of the same. There is no need to derail another person to justify what I believe. However, even though they don’t believe the same thing, I find that I love them the same. I don’t find the need to separate myself and look for others. They are still human beings that God created who share the experience of life with me.



Before coming into the faith, I thought, even if I come to the end and this all turned out to be a hoax, I don’t have anything significant to lose. I mean to be good to my wife, to treat neighbors and strangers better than I treat myself, to help those who become poor from difficult circumstances, to separate a section of my income to help others instead of saving it up, etc.



I do believe that God is good and only good. Let me explain.



There is a big key missing here—it is the greatest deception. The greatest deception is that Satan wants everyone to believe that he does not exist. I know it sounds too convenient like “oh great, not God but a devil who God created...and by the transitive property it is still God”.



There is a great controversy between God and Satan. God did not create a devil when he created Satan, He created a perfect angel—Lucifer (his name meaning the “Light Bearer”). However, Lucifer found it not satisfactory to not be able to exalt his pride by subjecting himself above all. In his choice, he chose to go against God to get what he wanted.



Yes, God knew that this would happen and created Satan anyway. Why did He do this? We would only know in Heaven. However, I do have some guesses limited by my human understanding but hinted in the Bible. In order for us to have the emotion of love, we have to have an opposite as well. In order for there to be good and to choose it, there has to be an opposite of that. Satan is that source and has used his power in a way that points all the fingers back to God. We believe that the devil is the second most powerful entity after the Godhead.



Another point is that for those who believe (I’m talking about myself) a lifetime on earth (~70 years) is nothing but a speck compared to eternal life. If my family dies tomorrow even endless prayer and God does not spare us, we trust that He had a reason. We are okay with that because we don’t believe it is anything to be that sad about. It is kind of hard to explain so I will use an analogy: If I’m awake on Monday at 4:30am and I had something I wanted to do on Saturday, I would not be upset if I nodded off and fell back asleep to wake up later. Likewise, it is like that with the kingdom of heaven—physical death is just a temporary rest and the next moment is eternal life.



God does not cross the line of free will because of how much He loves us. If my daughter becomes 40 years old (or even much younger than that; she is but a newborn) and still would not become independent, work, and become a responsible adult, I will not continue to let her live at home because of how much I love her. I want the best for her. The same it is with God—he wants you and I to be able to choose what we want to believe. Now, this is a whole other debate but there will be many in heaven who were not believers on earth. How can this be? Christ came to earth to be our substitute and example—he died to take the penalty of our death. He was baptized even though He was a perfect being and did not need to. What does this mean? There are many in life who, under their circumstances, did not believe in God. Even all those in other religions—a Buddhist monk never hearing about Christ but spent their entire life neglecting his pride and selfish desires to live a life with good reports from his fellow community. Individuals growing up in difficult circumstances, environments, and influences.

God does not blame us and it is as you say. If you cannot believe in Christ because you don’t know the entire truth of it (or in no way can believe it logically) then God knows it is very reasonable. If you pray humbly and ask for Him to show you the answers, He will. It won’t be instantly but things will work itself out over time. I remember before being Christian, agonizingly praying “God, I know that you are out there. If you are really the God described in the Bible and the Bible is actually true, you have to show me. There is no way I could believe it otherwise”. However, to those that He did show the truth, and they know it fully themselves but still chooses not to believe (for various reasons—power, money, sexual promiscuity, I don’t know) then undoubtedly wouldn’t they be reasonably very accountable? God understands all this.

The Trinity is definitely three separate entities but in one harmonious accord. They agree with each other completely in will—one Godhead. There is probably more depth to it than my finite human understanding. However, I look at it like how one substance—water, can exist in three different ways as a liquid, solid, and gaseous. Yet they are completely identical in their intrinsic properties. I suppose that is not the best analogy but it’s just something I came up with. Polytheism doesn’t share this and if they did, I suppose then they would be theologically monotheistic.



I’m not sure if I addressed everything and if I forgot something, I apologize. I’ll try my best to offer my time in answering the best I can.

 

[Rotare]

In His Creation (ie Nature) they see overwhelming evidence of His existence, yet they choose not to acknowledge Him.

What overwhelming specific evidence are you referring to???

Can I suggest that if evidence of a god was obvious, or overwhelming, then there really would be no debate.... yet there is.

What ever evidence you give for for the existence of your god, prove to me that it isn’t the work of the god of one of the other 4,299 religions that millions of people around the world worship.....

Please dont answer with a quote from the bible. With so much overwhelming evidence it should be a relatively easy question to answer.