Barney Frank rips this girl a new one

[Tupers]

Originally Posted by Wicked_Jester

it would also be forced apon those of use that dont want their health care plan, meaning we cant choose to get our on health care plan

Where has that been said? Throughout everything I have head, read and watched it has been stated that it is a government OPTION and not an attempt to wipe out the current insurance companies in favor of government run health insurance.

[HndsWthtShdws]

The biggest problem with Canada's health care system is the people's lack of family doctors. The ER is clogged because people come in when their cold lasts more than 5 days or they have a weird bruise thats been there for awhile. If people went to their family doctors for these issues our system would be fantastic. Obviously every country has idiots and you can trust them to do things right for the general population so our system isnt going to improve.

Some people seem to think our ER's are first come first serve. Thats not true. The first thing you do here is see a triage nurse, who basically decides how long you are going to wait. If you come in needing 10 stitches they wont make you wait untill the idiots before you have been seen. Broken bones are iffy, but if you say it hurts and you have to wait then you wait on a bed with 2mg of morphine.

I've never had to wait in an emergency room to be treated, because I only go if its an emergency.

[Wicked_Jester]

Originally Posted by Tupers

Where has that been said? Throughout everything I have head, read and watched it has been stated that it is a government OPTION and not an attempt to wipe out the current insurance companies in favor of government run health insurance.

they are already trying to FORCE the current PRIVATE insurance companys to give them all the profit, cost, and other charts to that they know what to charge to put the private companies out of business, and do you think its a good idea that they get ahold of the healthcare market? The cash for clunkers program ran out of money in a week, the US postal service is out of money and raising rates a lot. they only think they know how to control sales and service but they really dont

[Wicked_Jester]

Originally Posted by HndsWthtShdws

The biggest problem with Canada's health care system is the people's lack of family doctors. The ER is clogged because people come in when their cold lasts more than 5 days or they have a weird bruise thats been there for awhile. If people went to their family doctors for these issues our system would be fantastic.

Some people seem to think our ER's are first come first serve. Thats not true. The first thing you do here is see a triage nurse, who basically decides how long you are going to wait. If you come in needing 10 stitches they wont make you wait untill the idiots before you have been seen.

I've never had to wait in an emergency room to be treated, because I only go if its an emergency.

there is people here in the US that do that and adding a health care plan to the people that dont want it or cant afford it they will more then likely abuse it

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Tupers

force the insurance companies to insure the currently uncovered or the government provides them with health care.

So either "force" private companies to pay or "force" the taxpayers to pay for those who, for whatever reason, don't have health insurance? Yeah, you are right...that's not socialism... Sorry, we live in a democratic society where the PEOPLE have a choice.

What about the people who can afford it, but choose not to? Shall the taxpayers pay for those people as well?

[Mr.Slave]

Originally Posted by Wicked_Jester

Nazi behaviour was socialism, The other day I heard a lady on a talk show from Canada where there is already a national health care plan now living here in the US say our current health care system blows Canada's away, Im self employeed so I know what its like to pay for health care coverage without a large coorpiration helping me, and I'd much rather keep paying the $800+ a month im paying instead of the so called "FREE" public option the govt. has proposed, because when I go to the doctor the longest I have waited was like 20 minutes and the place was packed, and my co-pay is only $5 even if I have to go to the ER it $5

nazi behavior was fascism.

what, is the political spectrum circular?

[jfraymond]

Originally Posted by Tupers

X2 Last time I check the UK wasn't a socialist or Nazi nation and we have government provided health care. I was also under the impression that the intension of this bill was to provided healthcare to those who can't afford it. It seems like the American public are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

The intention of this bill is to gain more Govt control over the population. WE already have laws prohibiting denial of medical service to anyone. Not to mention a very extensive medicare and medicaid program for the elderly and less-fortunate. IF helping those people out was really the reasoning behind switching to socialized medicine they would be working on fixing the deficiencies in those two programs NOT trying to force the entire population (except the political class ) into what they claim is a broken substandard system. I may be crazy, but IMHO the goal should be to get the 10% able to access the greatest medical treatment in the world that the other 90% of the american people enjoy instead of forcing the 90% into what the Govt claims is a substandard system. But then again like i said.....this isnt really only about helping to provide healthcare.

Originally Posted by Tupers

Yes but there are levels of Socialism. I'm sure your not dumb enough to think that Obama wanting to providing health care for those that can't afford it is akin to what Kim Jong-il has going on in North Korea.
As far as I can see you either force the insurance companies to insure the currently uncovered or the government provides them with health care. Ultimately it boils down the greed and the upper classes not wanting to help out those not as fortunate as them selfs.

Hmmm...where to start...lol. Socialism is Socialism, it doesnt matter at what stage of its developement it is in. The ultimate goal is to place all the power within the state and those who run it, its a modern day form of fuedalism. the Beauty of a socialist/statist takeover is its entire developement is achevied through percieved good public works. The state identifies a problem within the society and then gets the people to trade a little bit of its freedom and power in return for the Goverments service. it gradually grows little by little and when serious catastrophes ( like our economic crash) occur it takes as large of a chunk as it thinks it can at that time....all under the impression of for the good of the people. when all is said and done the State and those who orchestrated it have all the rights and power while its people provide all the service.

As to the quip about greed and the upperclass, when was the last time you heard of one of the Socialist elitists provideing great works of charity? Fact of the matter is those Evil Capitalists are the ones that support and promote the virtues of charitable giving. ANd on top of that it is the top 50% of our society that provides for the all the public goods. And the top 1% that picks up over half of that bill. I dont care how much the Socialist/statist/democrat/liberals proclaim to have the high ground, forceably taking away the rights, Liberties, wealth and property of one group of people to give to another group of people in exchange for votes is NIETHER altruistic NOR charity.

Give me the power to confiscate everyones wealth and I'll put Mother Teressa to shame in the charity department by the Liberal lefts definition of it.

Originally Posted by Tupers

Where has that been said? Throughout everything I have head, read and watched it has been stated that it is a government OPTION and not an attempt to wipe out the current insurance companies in favor of government run health insurance.

The President and the rest of the ruling elite that share his Ideology publicly state there support and goal of a single-pay system (socialized medicine).
As I mentioned before socialism is a gradual "take when you can" type of methodology. With provisions in the bill such as paying for the government option even if you stick with private insurance and the fact that they want insurance companies to be BANNED from any new enrollments once the system is enacted as well as the power to dictate what companies can even continue operating in the first place is not what i would call "giving the people the option". Sure you can keep what you currently have, BUT you still have to pay for the government option and BTW....if you try and switch jobs or want to change plans YOU CANT!!! you automatically get thrown in the public plan.
Any healthcare coverage where you can't freely choose to move between public or private is definitly not promoting competition and certainly is not a "OPTION"

One final thought......there is a reason why our country fought a WAR to gain our independance from a Statist based system and put the power in the hands of the poeple who have to live under it. The only real difference between 1776 and today is the claims to legitimacy by those who seek to rule.

[jfraymond]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

nazi behavior was fascism.

what, is the political spectrum circular?

Nope, socialism and fascism are nearly identicle.
the difference is that fascism seeks to propagandize the " illusion" that private enterprise still has control of the industries. While Socialism outright promotes the "illusion" that everything is owned by the people.

In both cases the reality is that the elite ruling class runs everything in a Oligarchy based system.

[mississippirocs]

This thread is like beating a dead horse. If you look at what the Obama administration has done since it took over they are leading the Country to Socialism. They have got the governments hands in the Banking industry, the Auto industry and now want control of the Health Care Industry. If you look at the History books that is the same type of moves that Hitler done. Thats where the comparisons come from. I am a Conservative and I just hope that the Country I love manages to survive the current Administration so that someone else with less Socialistic views can straiten it out whether it is a Republican, Democrat or Other.

[Mr.Slave]

Originally Posted by jfraymond

Nope, socialism and fascism are nearly identicle.
the difference is that fascism seeks to propagandize the " illusion" that private enterprise still has control of the industries. While Socialism outright promotes the "illusion" that everything is owned by the people.

In both cases the reality is that the elite ruling class runs everything in a Oligarchy based system.

that must be why they are so far apart on the political spectrum..

[jfraymond]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

that must be why they are so far apart on the political spectrum..

Thats just it...They arent!!!

On the spectrum of Governmental power in a society ( complete authoritarian control - complete anarchy ) they both reside just down from a complete dictatorship. In reality a complete dictatorship cannot exist for very long in a full society becouse at some point the beauracracy must be formed in order to provide the governing of a society. ie a "Oligarchy"- rule by the priviledged few.

Where people get confused is when value based Axis are imposed into the political spectrum such as the social vs. economic lines. The whole point of setting our country up as a Republic was to protect the rights and veiws of all our citizens to determine what is right or wrong within their own communities. Which is why it doesnt matter if its marxist-socialism or fascist-socialism. Our country was founded and is a success because its based on freedom, liberty, and the rights of the individual.....to impose Socialism on a society built around Freedom will stop its evolution and severly stifle future progress.

[dblrnut]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

So either "force" private companies to pay or "force" the taxpayers to pay for those who, for whatever reason, don't have health insurance? Yeah, you are right...that's not socialism... Sorry, we live in a democratic society where the PEOPLE have a choice.

What about the people who can afford it, but choose not to? Shall the taxpayers pay for those people as well?

right on the money except for one little thing our country is a republic not a democracy. democracy=majority tramples over the minority. republic= is all about individual responsibility and freedom minority has just as much power. hence "For the republic for which it stands one nation " you know the rest

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by dblrnut

individual responsibility

Haha! If the people of this country had that (even the slightest amount), then my taxes wouldn't soon be paying for health insurance for others!

[Stormin2u]

Originally Posted by HndsWthtShdws

The biggest problem with Canada's health care system is the people's lack of family doctors. The ER is clogged because people come in when their cold lasts more than 5 days or they have a weird bruise thats been there for awhile. If people went to their family doctors for these issues our system would be fantastic. Obviously every country has idiots and you can trust them to do things right for the general population so our system isnt going to improve.

Some people seem to think our ER's are first come first serve. Thats not true. The first thing you do here is see a triage nurse, who basically decides how long you are going to wait. If you come in needing 10 stitches they wont make you wait untill the idiots before you have been seen. Broken bones are iffy, but if you say it hurts and you have to wait then you wait on a bed with 2mg of morphine.

I've never had to wait in an emergency room to be treated, because I only go if its an emergency.

Not to much different here family practice is dying because it pays a lot less than a specialty and the emergency room situation here is also very simular. Just to make it worse the specialists don't talk to each other so "shit happens".

[Mr.Slave]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Haha! If the people of this country had that (even the slightest amount), then my taxes wouldn't soon be paying for health insurance for others!

Ill be damned if I let some damn freeloadin freeloaders drive on my roads.
or go to my schools. or use my police force. or use my armies or ....

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

Ill be damned if I let some damn freeloadin freeloaders drive on my roads.
or go to my schools. or use my police force. or use my armies or ....

Yeah, you say that now...

How's about we send 12million folks up your way to do exactly that. Use everything that you help pay for....but the catch is, they aren't going to contribute. Still happy?

[soundcolor]

So then, here is the better question to all of this.
What if there was a 2 stage system
1, was everyone was convered period. Same coverage, same standards.
2, you could opt out of that if you wished and pay an insurance premium that was a based on your pay scale.

Say, if you make 30 grand a year you could opt out of the federal nation wide coverage for say 150 bucks a month for you, or 250 a month for family coverage...

If you opted out, and took option 2, you would get better coverage, and better services available to you immediatly instead of having to jump through the loopholes that we all know standardized healthcare will bring.

Would that make everyone shut up.?

[JeremyH]

What would make be stop replying to this thread (that you started) is to set up a system for those IN NEED....that was free from corruption. I wouldn't mind helping someone who needed the help....but I will be damned if I am going to help someone who will simply take advantage of the system and bleed it dry because health insurance isn't what they choose to spend their money on. THAT is the problem with our "government" run programs. We staff them with the same corrupt people who like to take advantage of the system.

[dblrnut]

government staying the heck out of everything and doing what the heck their supposed to do like protect our money and borders not taxing my smokes to pay for poor kids health again who pays for my kid i do aint that a biscuit. and isnt barney frank the stuttering fool who has all them little boys chained up in his basement thought i read that somewhere

[soundcolor]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

What would make ME stop replying to this thread (that you started)
easy there big fella... I wasn't trying to make anyone stop posting their opinion, or shut up. Just asking if that would level the field a bit...
is to set up a system for those IN NEED....that was free from corruption. I wouldn't mind helping someone who needed the help....but I will be damned if I am going to help someone who will simply take advantage of the system and bleed it dry because health insurance isn't what they choose to spend their money on. THAT is the problem with our "government" run programs. We staff them with the same corrupt people who like to take advantage of the system.

Guess not