Comp rules

[solo1]

Hi all ive only been involved in rc rock crawling for about a year but have been involved in rc for a while. The question i would like to pose is why do comp rules shoot the sport in the foot by not helping those mfg’s that help us and chaseing away newcomers with a rule set that caters to chineese manufactures of cheep plastic toys? If you try to follow sorrca rules with another than hard body you must have almost everything else on the score sheet to make points but if you buy a chineese toy body (and even in some clubs that complain about flexability of lexan or polycarbinate leave those hardbodys fastened with velcro so they pop loose if you hit something) it makes it easy to max points? Shouldnt we be striving to make it at least somewhat easy for new people to compete on an equal level without going nuts on spending for braging rights?

[btoungette]

I'll share my opinion, and only my opinion...

Competitions of any kind is not the place to start in any hobby. A new person that starts in a comp situation strait out of the gate (pun intended) will not have a good time. I'd argue that at any level - 1:1 racing or RC stuff. In the scale crawler world, I'd recommend starting out with a local group that does not compete, but just goes out to have fun, more like trail rides. No pressure to perform or hurry up or not hit stuff. Just have fun. Once the new person becomes "less new" and more versed in scale crawlers, AND has an interest in competition, then they can find opportunities to compete. Will they be competitive? They can with good driving skills and a good rig. Does the rig need to be thousands of dollars or hand built? No. I have seen stock, out of the box, scale crawlers finish high on the driver list because the truck was capable and the driver could drive. Scale points allow you to be a less good driver. For example: if someone has 10 more scale points than you, you need to hit one less gate than they do. If the other driver has max points and consistent clean runs, then they are on a higher level than you.

So, to answer your question, "Shouldn't we be striving to make it at least somewhat easy for new people to compete on an equal level without going nuts on spending for bragging rights?" No. It will cost you to compete whether it is time and/or money. Competition isn't cheap or (in my opinion) entry level.

There are two kinds of folks in the world, those that like to compete and those that don't. Those that do, understand what it takes to get to competition level; those that don't, from my experience, just wine about it.

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by solo1

Hi all ive only been involved in rc rock crawling for about a year but have been involved in rc for a while. The question i would like to pose is why do comp rules shoot the sport in the foot by not helping those mfg’s that help us and chaseing away newcomers with a rule set that caters to chineese manufactures of cheep plastic toys? If you try to follow sorrca rules with another than hard body you must have almost everything else on the score sheet to make points but if you buy a chineese toy body (and even in some clubs that complain about flexability of lexan or polycarbinate leave those hardbodys fastened with velcro so they pop loose if you hit something) it makes it easy to max points? Shouldnt we be striving to make it at least somewhat easy for new people to compete on an equal level without going nuts on spending for braging rights?

You are cracking open Pandora's box with that question. If you read the Why I comp/Why I don't comp threads you will get a good education on the subject.

Yes there should be a set of rules that cater to a box stock truck allowing access to, on a beginners level, comps. (my opinion)

Unfortunately it seems that the prominent rule making body doesn't share that opinion. From the outside looking in, they have their heads so far up their collective ars, that it makes entry into comps a very overwhelm and expensive proposition. If you want to see that first hand visit their FB page.

I would disagree with your equal level statement. Those people who go above and beyond in making a scale truck according to the rules they comp by should not be judged on the same level as if you buy a deadbolt and show up the next day.

[bongsten]

I think the original intent of scale rules was to award those who took the time to scratch build interiors and scale items and run hard bodies. Also if your import Walmart body comes un velcro'ed then you have to take a repair penalty because it no longer fits the rules. You can build a full points truck with a lexan body but its easier with a hard body. I have both ends of the points race with my trucks and if i comp a lower points truck than i have to accept i might lose due to scale points. You should definitely go to comps! The driving time will always improve your skill and you can gradually build scale points to be more and more competitive. Just my 5 cents

[Col_Sanders]

Comps are a lot of fun. They will make you a better driver by pushing you and your truck to the limit, as well as give you the opportunity to watch more experienced drivers. Maybe if you have enough other newbies you can talk the people putting on your local comps to have a newbie class.

As for points, ALMOST everything that you do to add points is detrimental to the truck's performance. Hardbodies weigh more than lexan and put the weight up high. Same goes for roof racks, roll cages, spare tires, pull pals, chassis mounted servos, etc. You have to decide if those few points are worth adding a bunch of weight up high or if you really want to spend that extra money or time putting little scale touches on your truck.

I'd love a box stock RTR class, but it looks like it would be up to local groups to set it up. The only mod allowed would be to put on the battery connection of your choice on the ESC. That would be fun because it would be all about the driver.

[solo1]

Originally Posted by Col_Sanders

Comps are a lot of fun. They will make you a better driver by pushing you and your truck to the limit, as well as give you the opportunity to watch more experienced drivers.

I'd love a box stock RTR class, but it looks like it would be up to local groups to set it up. The only mod allowed would be to put on the battery connection of your choice on the ESC. That would be fun because it would be all about the driver.

This is what i was thinking when i started down this path . I was tired of spending money racing indoor buggies that would get smashed by other drivers in pratcice thought it would be about being able to drive a good line and you could be on equal ground. Perhaps its time for someone to make a set of rules that would allow more people to be on an equal level so its more about good driving and less about points

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by Col_Sanders

As for points, ALMOST everything that you do to add points is detrimental to the truck's performance. Hardbodies weigh more than lexan and put the weight up high. Same goes for roof racks, roll cages, spare tires, pull pals, chassis mounted servos, etc. .

I'm not really sure I agree with that, I don't disagree with it either. We have some hard bodied rigs at the club I run with that are exceptionally well set up. Watching them drive you would not think they are at any disadvantage. I'm sure it is part driver, and part excellent tuning.

However even as I am moving my rigs toward more points I have notice some of it add advantages. I think my forward mounted transmission and transfercase has definitely improved my performance . The rig likes to keep wheels on the ground when climbing and breaking over a rock.

At times properly set up leaf springs are not a disadvantage either.

[Col_Sanders]

I like the rules the way they are because they push you to build a good rig and play the game with points. Is it worth the points to put the servo on the chassis or are you better off keeping that weight low on the axle?

A stock RTR class would probably just be something that you would have to set up with your local club. If enough of you are interested, it could possibly happen. I don't think SORRCA is going to make a set of rules for it (like class zero).

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

I'm not really sure I agree with that, I don't disagree with it either. We have some hard bodied rigs at the club I run with that are exceptionally well set up. Watching them drive you would not think they are at any disadvantage. I'm sure it is part driver, and part excellent tuning.

However even as I am moving my rigs toward more points I have notice some of it add advantages. I think my forward mounted transmission and transfercase has definitely improved my performance . The rig likes to keep wheels on the ground when climbing and breaking over a rock.

At times properly set up leaf springs are not a disadvantage either.

Hard body rigs can be built to perform well. I'm definitely not saying they cant. Just saying that the exact same setup with a lightweight lexan body would probably do a bit better.

Some mods like the forward mount motor with transfer case do get points and improve performance, but they still have a trade off. Now you have more parts to break and you have to figure out how to mount your battery and electronics.

[solo1]

Originally Posted by Col_Sanders

Hard body rigs can be built to perform well. I'm definitely not saying they cant. Just saying that the exact same setup with a lightweight lexan body would probably do a bit better.

I have to disagree with the weight thing my trx is heavier than some guys scx with hard bodies and preforms better i think the weight thing comes down to tire and suspension tuneing more than anything and i think if you had to run sliders it would kill the flex argument against polycarb or lexan bodies

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by solo1

i think if you had to run sliders it would kill the flex argument against polycarb or lexan bodies

No it doesn't. My lexan bodies scrape and bend through gaps that hang up my hard body.

Lexan bodies flex, bend and deflect giving them an advantage over hard bodies.

For that matter plastic slides do the same.

Your never going to convince anyone that your jeep body deserves hard body consideration.

[Col_Sanders]

Originally Posted by solo1

I have to disagree with the weight thing my trx is heavier than some guys scx with hard bodies and preforms better i think the weight thing comes down to tire and suspension tuneing more than anything and i think if you had to run sliders it would kill the flex argument against polycarb or lexan bodies

Its not just about weight, its about the location of the weight. Put 4oz on top of your roof and run a course, then run the same course with that 4oz on the front axle instead. The weight on the roof is going to make it tip over easier and will hurt you on climbs. The weight on the axle will do the opposite.

[solo1]

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

No it doesn't. My lexan bodies scrape and bend through gaps that hang up my hard body.

Lexan bodies flex, bend and deflect giving them an advantage over hard bodies.

For that matter plastic slides do the same.

Your never going to convince anyone that your jeep body deserves hard body consideration.

And your welcome to your opinion but the front fenders on my jeep are .055 thick and even at the doors it is .030 thick soo really how much more can it flex than .040 polystyrene when i have sliders that run from front to rear fenders? The whole point im trying to make is i think the rulesneed to change slightly so as not to give such a big advantage to someone that buys a toy body and mounts it to a frame over someone that wants to have a good time with a rtr or basic kit i tire of the extreme spending to go have some fun just for braging rights. Now if there was a $1000.00 purse i could see the extreme spending. I would like to see a rule set that places more emphisis on driver skill and setup than having a deep pockets

[solo1]

Ive added weight all over the place to note changes if this is the priority the trx is a poor choice because of the portals because everything must be higher to give them clearance

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by solo1

And your welcome to your opinion but the front fenders on my jeep are .055 thick and even at the doors it is .030 thick soo really how much more can it flex than .040 polystyrene when i have sliders that run from front to rear fenders? The whole point im trying to make is i think the rulesneed to change slightly so as not to give such a big advantage to someone that buys a toy body and mounts it to a frame over someone that wants to have a good time with a rtr or basic kit i tire of the extreme spending to go have some fun just for braging rights. Now if there was a $1000.00 purse i could see the extreme spending. I would like to see a rule set that places more emphisis on driver skill and setup than having a deep pockets

Now, now Solo1 don't get your panties in a bunch. Its not my fault I know who you really are, and am taking advantage of that to troll you a little bit. in good fun of coarse.

What you fail to understand is that having the coin is not what it takes to make a good rig. Those guys with rigs you perceive as being funded by deep pockets are in reality rigs with years of work put into them. With that comes a good knowledge of how the rig will react on the rocks and knowledge of tuning.

There is absolutely no rules that stops you from running a less then pointed out rig and going out and having some fun. You wouldn't get nor deserve bragging rights as a less then pointed out rig just does not have the handicap that a hard body rig has.

So you really can't have it both ways. Either you want to complete against other drivers based solo on skill. Or you want to compete against drivers with skill and the ability to set up a rig the right way, which will involve deep pockets.


Even going box stock, do you think it is fair that your $450.00 traxxas using unlocking diffs and portal, should compete against a stock scx10? You don't consider the extra money for the portals to be a monetary advantage.

I'm not trying to correct you or put you down, but you have this idea of fairness in your mind, or lack of fairness, that is not allowing you to see past it.

[Col_Sanders]

Originally Posted by solo1

And your welcome to your opinion but the front fenders on my jeep are .055 thick and even at the doors it is .030 thick soo really how much more can it flex than .040 polystyrene when i have sliders that run from front to rear fenders? The whole point im trying to make is i think the rulesneed to change slightly so as not to give such a big advantage to someone that buys a toy body and mounts it to a frame over someone that wants to have a good time with a rtr or basic kit i tire of the extreme spending to go have some fun just for braging rights. Now if there was a $1000.00 purse i could see the extreme spending. I would like to see a rule set that places more emphisis on driver skill and setup than having a deep pockets

Lexan flexes. It will give when it goes against another hard object. Hard bodies will not give.

As for prices, go piece together an Axial JK Rubicon body. Its over $80 for all the screws, cage, body, flares. You can get hard bodies for less than that (if you don't buy all the small parts like hinges and bumpers that go with it)

As for the other deep pocket comment, a crappy driver with an expensive rig is not going to beat a good driver with a mild build. We had guys with close to stock SCX10s beating highly built rigs here last year.

[Col_Sanders]

Originally Posted by solo1

Ive added weight all over the place to note changes if this is the priority the trx is a poor choice because of the portals because everything must be higher to give them clearance

I should have my hands on another TRX-4 here shortly. I'm going to see what they are capable of. I'll be eliminating at least the rear locker and most likely the 2nd gear.

[solo1]

Ok so i understand some of these comments and some are true to an extent but here is an example of what im trying to get at the trx is top heavy and heavier than an scx from the start it has some advantage oof the portals but is at a disadvantage because of them also because everything must ride higher up and farther back. But at any rate i did my first comp at the northeast national and finished 13 out of 26 but i was giving up 20 points per course i cleaned the first 3 courses and bumped a marker on the last course. If i had full points i would have finished 2nd. To make 60 points with a stock trx i would have to add almost everything else on the scoring sheet which i did but it put my trx over 12 lbs and was not very competive in that form. Im not looking for a handout but to me it seems that te amount of points you get for a hard body is not in line for the amount of points you get for everything else I seems to me that to have a competetive vehicle you must run a hard body or accept that you wont win

[bongsten]

A guy I used to crawl with had a lexan XJ body on an scx10 chassis that was a full points C2 rig and was very competitive (and heavy) both locally and at a national SORRCA event. He had a proper 2 row interior with full cage and cargo area plus drivers to compensate for the hard body points. On a TRX4 you could run a 2 row interior plus rear cargo area. I don't agree a hardbody is a must to point out or be competitive, a well laid out and tuned rig you trust is best. That's badass you had a good time at a comp!

[sourdojack]

I run a hard body (-12) on my scale FJ40, and am currently at 53 points. I don't have a driver (-4), passenger (-4) or spare tire (-3). So it's pretty much a wash, I could have gone either way.

What really gets you points is doing metal work.


TOM

[btoungette]

solo1, you are a few years behind the curve. The scale comp scene has evolved past where you are starting, especially at a national level. My first national comp opened my eyes. However, I was at the other end of the spectrum with a maxed out truck that did not perform. I learned a lot from that experience. I went back the following year and finished two points out of third place with a totally different truck.

Where would everyone else have finished if you apply your methodology to everyone's scores?

Sounds like you are a good driver. Now work on getting your truck where it needs to be with points. That is the next step in becoming more competitive. You have seen it first hand. Many of the podium finishers understand that to be competitive, you start the day with max points.

Don't ask for the rules to change and adjust for you; adjust to the rules like the drivers that finish on the podium have done.