2013 Rules

[Olle P]

I have to agree with Erik.
- At 3 sec the right front wheel pretty clearly pass outside the gate marker, and then never go back below the line.
- The left front wheel moves all over the place and can by no means claim a "clean" passage of the gate marker.
- The left rear wheel is questionable.
- The right rear is the only one that make a clearly clean passage.

Verdict: No progress, the gate stays "live" and has to be attempted again.

This film does raise (to me) the question what direction the "plane" of the gate takes when it's in a slope. Rule 1.10, illustration A, shows that it's the rearmost part of the wheels that determine when each wheel is past, and then it can make a considerable difference if this is measured vertically or at a right angle from the (sloping) ground.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

After watching the video a bunch of times, its hard to tell if he even got either front tire through the gates. On the last attempt, it looks as though the drivers front goes around the gate instead of through.

From video watching, I would have called that gate/no progress.

You've got a good point there. It's hard to tell from that angle, but after watching again, the right front definitely goes way right of the right gate, then the left front ends up back, behind the gate, requiring it to pass cleanly between the gates (the right front never crosses back that far) and then the left front goes over the left gate which means that neither front tire passes between the gates.

Good catch, Erik.

 

[BC-Brian]

After watching the video a bunch of times, its hard to tell if he even got either front tire through the gates. On the last attempt, it looks as though the drivers front goes around the gate instead of through.

I would agree with this if he had slid back completely behind the gate, but...

Seems to me like the front axle passes over the gate (what would have been called a straddle a few months ago) then the rig wiggles around for a while but the front axle never falls back behind the gate, then the rear axle passes through the gates, and at least the passenger side is within bounds.

Since the front axle did not slide past the gate markers doesn't the front drivers side wheel that made clean progress through the gate remain, and then the rear passenger wheel makes progress. So double gate penalty with progress.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

I would agree with this if he had slid back completely behind the gate, but...

Seems to me like the front axle passes over the gate (what would have been called a straddle a few months ago) then the rig wiggles around for a while but the front axle never falls back behind the gate, then the rear axle passes through the gates, and at least the passenger side is within bounds.

Since the front axle did not slide past the gate markers doesn't the front drivers side wheel that made clean progress through the gate remain, and then the rear passenger wheel makes progress. So double gate penalty with progress.

To me, what affects the decision is that the left front never clears the gates cleanly, even on the first attempt where he drove over the right gate.

Honestly, though, it's fairly easy to pick apart a video when we can watch it over and over. In real time, its up to the judge to make the call quickly. In real time, I'd have likely made the same call you did. When judging, we don't have the benefit of instant replay, so we just do the best we can.

 

[BC-Brian]

To me, what affects the decision is that the left front never clears the gates cleanly, even on the first attempt where he drove over the right gate.

Honestly, though, it's fairly easy to pick apart a video when we can watch it over and over. In real time, its up to the judge to make the call quickly. In real time, I'd have likely made the same call you did. When judging, we don't have the benefit of instant replay, so we just do the best we can.

Yea it is definitely easy to scrutinize the call when there is Video. We made a strict "No Video Replays" rule at our club

 

[Erik D_lux]

the front drivers side wheel that made clean progress through the gate remain,

From what I could see, that was the problem. I didnt see the drivers front make clean progress. If the drivers front is the only front tire to make progress, it has to be "clean", meaning if it just barely touches the inside of the gate marker and then goes through, that is not clean. You need 1 front and 1 rear to go through without touching a gate.

I agree on the judgement call. If I only got one shot to see what happened, I would have called +20 points and progress.

 

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Left front wheel makes it and right rear wheel makes it. 20 points and progress.

 

[Olle P]

Left front wheel makes it...

When?
As I see it the front end of that wheel cross the gate line early on.
Then the wheel begins to move back and forth along the line, in and out of the gate, before finally the rear end of that wheel is past the line.

I sure can't determine wether the wheel is inside or outside the gate at the instant it leaves. Does that matter, given that it has been inside at some point during the attempt to clear the gate?

Also, when is a wheel (just) past a gate in a slope, by the pic below?

 

[EvilTwin v2]

When?
As I see it the front end of that wheel cross the gate line early on.
Then the wheel begins to move back and forth along the line, in and out of the gate, before finally the rear end of that wheel is past the line.

I sure can't determine wether the wheel is inside or outside the gate at the instant it leaves. Does that matter, given that it has been inside at some point during the attempt to clear the gate?

Also, when is a wheel (just) past a gate in a slope, by the pic below?

In the drawing above, #1 is how I try to judge it. Otherwise, I've seen gates that would have been impossible to be cleared with #2.

 

[BC-Brian]

In the drawing above, #1 is how I try to judge it. Otherwise, I've seen gates that would have been impossible to be cleared with #2.

We also use method #1. Method #2 would be much more difficult to judge, and probably even more difficult for the driver.

 

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

When?
As I see it the front end of that wheel cross the gate line early on.
Then the wheel begins to move back and forth along the line, in and out of the gate, before finally the rear end of that wheel is past the line.

I sure can't determine wether the wheel is inside or outside the gate at the instant it leaves. Does that matter, given that it has been inside at some point during the attempt to clear the gate?

Also, when is a wheel (just) past a gate in a slope, by the pic below?

After the left front tire hit the gate, then it drove through gate.

As far as pass the gate goes. If you draw a line from gate to gate, thats pass the gate.

 

[Erik D_lux]

After the left front tire hit the gate, then it drove through gate.

If he hit the gate then he did not go between them.

I think its the biggest missed call that we have in crawling. You must get 1 front and 1 rear BETWEEN the gates.

If the 1 front tire that youre getting progress with hits a gate then it did not go BETWEEN them.

This is most commonly missed when you are doing a typical straddle and 1 of the front or 1 of the rears that are intended to go between the gates run over the gate. 99% of the time they are allowed progress which should not be the case.

Progress w/ no penalty = 4 tires between the gates
Progress w/ gate penalty = 1 front, 1 rear between the gates
Running over a gate with one front and between the gates with your rear = no progress

 

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

If he hit the gate then he did not go between them.

I think its the biggest missed call that we have in crawling. You must get 1 front and 1 rear BETWEEN the gates.

If the 1 front tire that youre getting progress with hits a gate then it did not go BETWEEN them.

This is most commonly missed when you are doing a typical straddle and 1 of the front or 1 of the rears that are intended to go between the gates run over the gate. 99% of the time they are allowed progress which should not be the case.

Progress w/ no penalty = 4 tires between the gates
Progress w/ gate penalty = 1 front, 1 rear between the gates
Running over a gate with one front and between the gates with your rear = no progress

He did hit the gate just like you said, then he drove between the gate maker and where the other gate marker was.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Hmmm, I guess we either see it differently or we are not understanding each other.

Youre also right, he may have driven between the gates however, the way I see it, if his driver front tire hits that gate, he now needs the entire tire to go through the entire gate, not just between, kinda like if you do the straddle, you need to back it up all the way until the tire is before the gate.

When he hits the gate with his drivers front, I do see him go between but I dont see him lose progress and do the entire gate with the entire tire.

Does that make sense?

 

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Hmmm, I guess we either see it differently or we are not understanding each other.

Youre also right, he may have driven between the gates however, the way I see it, if his driver front tire hits that gate, he now needs the entire tire to go through the entire gate, not just between, kinda like if you do the straddle, you need to back it up all the way until the tire is before the gate.

When he hits the gate with his drivers front, I do see him go between but I dont see him lose progress and do the entire gate with the entire tire.

Does that make sense?

We see it the same, I just thought he hit the front of the gate and went back. I'll try watching it in slow mo. :ror:

So you would be good with it IF he backed out AND then got his front left tire between the gates back.
We could hack on this video, but it comes down to a judgement call, from the downhill view that the judge had, it may look one way and with the uphill view we had from the video looks another.

 

[Erik D_lux]

I am good with it if you see it that way (he backed all the way out). I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page as far as 1 tire going completely through the gates and not if it just bounced off a gate and got somewhere between them and called it good.

Man, I am glad I was not judging this one. Even watching the video 100x its still hard. Its really cool to have this situation as it shows how hard real life judging is.

 

[BOLT]

Now i have some problems understanding gatemarker/ tire outside gate thing. I thought they would give the same points since they both are in Rule 1.5.

Like if your left front tire goes outside left gate, you continue driving and hits the left gate with left rear tire. Both right tires goes inside between the gatemarkes. All in the same attempt. This gives 10 points and progress, right ?

 

[BC-Brian]

I am good with it if you see it that way (he backed all the way out). I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page as far as 1 tire going completely through the gates and not if it just bounced off a gate and got somewhere between them and called it good.

Man, I am glad I was not judging this one. Even watching the video 100x its still hard. Its really cool to have this situation as it shows how hard real life judging is.

It was interesting when I came across it in the footage. It was a hard call to make at the time, if happened pretty quick and was the last gate to boot.

Definitely interesting to watch it a fee more times

 

[Olle P]

Like if your left front tire goes outside left gate, you continue driving and hits the left gate with left rear tire. Both right tires goes inside between the gatemarkes. All in the same attempt. This gives 10 points and progress, right ?

Correct. Here it's the right tires that are decisive.

 

[EvilTwin v2]

btw, the 2011 & 2012 rules are still stickied on this forum, but not the 2013 rules, so they show up before the current rules when viewing the forum.