4 PARALLEL front link setups w panhard

[hozer]

I'd like your suggestions and example photos on running a 4 parallel link setup wih a panhard / track bar. I did a search and didn't find anything.

Im collecting parts for my New Bright JKU scaler. I plan to uses SCX10 axles, a GCM CrossCanyon Chassis, and a rc4wd AX2 two speed transmission mounted up front. I want the ride hight ultra low, but I still want to be able to have compression. With the motor forward of the towers I will likely hit the pumpkin. With the motor behind the towers and toward the center of the chassis, I will hit the links on either a typical 3 link or 4 link setup. If I go parallel with a panhard, the links can clear the low slung motor/trans and the pumpkin can rise up under compression. It is also more true to scale.

I also plan to run front sway bars as this will be a trail runner. I'm thinking I could mount the shock and lower links in their normal spots on the axle. The upper link and swaybar link could attach to a custom double shear mount that would be screwed on to the axle on top where the 2 holes are (where you'd normaly have the spring pad on a 1:1). The double shear would have the brackets pointing up like a goal post. The front side of the bracket could be boxed in so that I have a mounting point for the panhard.

Any suggestions, problems, or examples? Thanks!

 

[Propane]

Here is my 4link panhard setup. I haven't seen any others out there.

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=441990

 

[hozer]

Thanks Propane. Your upper links are more inboard that what I have planned, but its good to know that you didn't bind even with what looks like minor triangulation.

I can't see what the lower end of the shock mounts too. Clearly its not in the double shear bracket molded into the axle (along with the lower link). Do you have another angle that shows the mount? I may need to mount the shock directly over the lower link like that, so that my upper link runs just inboard but above the axle.

 

[Propane]

I am running VP Razor mounts to get the different mounting positions. If you look in my 6x6 build thread you can find more pictures.

 

[Bulldog]

If this is what you're trying to do....
RideTech Heavy Duty Parallel 4-Link - Black - 11006799 by RideTech by Air Ride

Then a panhard mounted as low and as close to horizontal will work.

The reason a panhard and a four link (triangulated) don't work together is because the panhard and three link lets the axle float slighty to one side....The triangulated four link plants the axle without movement. One wants to move, and one doesn't...Hence binding issues.

Suspension geometry can be tricky, but the more you see, the more you'll understand it.

Here's my three link setup on my buggy. It looks like there is a four link...but the fourth link is just hanging and not mounted. Mine is also way complicated with bent links and behind the axle steering...but, a three link and correct panhard setup doesn't lie. My setup could only be better by having both the steering drag link and panhard more horizontal than they are."thumbsup"
Scale Screamin 2 Southern buggy axial wraith based - YouTube

 

[Propane]

My triangulated 4link and panhard have no binding. Just saying.

 

[jdmguy760]

Propane you got skills man I been trying for link with pan bar and can't get it without binding bit hell taught me a lot bout 3 linking

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bulldog]

My triangulated 4link and panhard have no binding. Just saying.

From the link you posted: "Great explanation Doc. Makes sense but I like to do things different than others. Thats why I didn't want a 3 link CMS setup so I went after the 4 link. I must just be lucky that the geometry, suspension travel length, and "slop" allowed me to pull it off with smooth operation. Hope people enjoy seeing things done differently."

Maybe it is just the right set of circumstances...probably the biggest being some slop that stops you from binding. Also, your panhard/drag link are nice and low which is ideal for the setup. Getting guys to figure out panhard/CMS setups is hard enough without conflicting information.

Count yourself lucky that yours works, but keep in mind...there's a forum and a 1:1 world running three link setups for a reason.8)

One question...What do you think you gain with the extra link (OR) What do you think you'd lose with the three link? Have you pulled one off to see if you have any change in performance (good or bad). In general, the link you want to keep is the one on the left side as you look at the rig. I'd be curious to hear.

 

[Propane]

Maybe it is just the right set of circumstances...probably the biggest being some slop that stops you from binding. Also, your panhard/drag link are nice and low which is ideal for the setup. Getting guys to figure out panhard/CMS setups is hard enough without conflicting information.

Count yourself lucky that yours works, but keep in mind...there's a forum and a 1:1 world running three link setups for a reason.8)

One question...What do you think you gain with the extra link (OR) What do you think you'd lose with the three link? Have you pulled one off to see if you have any change in performance (good or bad). In general, the link you want to keep is the one on the left side as you look at the rig. I'd be curious to hear.

I set my rig up like this because both of my 1:1 rigs I have owned both had a 4link with a track bar(panhard). This works in the 1:1 world so I knew I could make it work in my scale rig. As for the information, its only conflicting if you believe a 3link is the only way to do a panhard. My rig shows and proves you can run a 4link with a panhard just like a 1:1 Jeep. Go look at most weekend warrior jeeps, they are mostly 4link with a trackbar. How many TJs, ZJs and JKs do you see on the road everyday? As for removing a link to see what it would do, why would I want to undo what I worked to achieve?

 

[doublej]

My triangulated 4link and panhard have no binding. Just saying.

It works because of the lack of travel + where the axle is in the arc of travel. 3links move completely differently from Tri 4links, the arcs and sways are not the same. But RCs usually have a lot less travel, so it all works out.

And all those weekend warrior TJs and such - they aren't Tri 4links. All the links are as close to flat as possible, which when designed right (length, positioning, and mounting) will basically act like a limited 3link.

 

[Propane]

It works because of the lack of travel + where the axle is in the arc of travel. 3links move completely differently from Tri 4links, the arcs and sways are not the same. But RCs usually have a lot less travel, so it all works out.

And all those weekend warrior TJs and such - they aren't Tri 4links. All the links are as close to flat as possible, which when designed right (length, positioning, and mounting) will basically act like a limited 3link.

I never said anything about Tri 4link vs parallel 4link. I was trying to show the OP that he shouldn't be discouraged at all the "you can't have a 4link panhard" that he will read. I'm just showing it can be done and work well . Lack of travel on a 1.9?? Interesting.

 

[Propane]

And

 

[summitcrawler]

i dont see how a 4 link with panhard would be less effective then 3 link with panhard... with 3 link no matter what you get side to side movement... if you have a room for a panhard with a 4 link i see it being more effective...

also shouldnt the travel of a 1:10 be the same as a 1:1 just scaled down? therefore having the same travel? and i believe 1:10 either have the same amount of travel or more then 1:1 but not less. unless you TRY to make it have less travel then a 1:1

 

[doublej]

I never said anything about Tri 4link vs parallel 4link. I was trying to show the OP that he shouldn't be discouraged at all the "you can't have a 4link panhard" that he will read. I'm just showing it can be done and work well . Lack of travel on a 1.9?? Interesting.
View attachment 240159
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Ok now do the math on your entire rig to find the true scale and see what that translate too vs a 1:1.
Stock TJs don't have a lot of travel till you disco the sway bars but most RC rigs do not come close to the amount of travel as a 1:1 rig.
It's a bigger difference when we start talking about a KOh rig but its still there.

And I'm not saying anything your doing is wrong. Just that your explanation and/or wording was alittle off. I will agree that if it works then Do It.

 

[hozer]

Every xj (cherokee), tj, jk, and grand Cherokee that ever rolled out of the factory haad a parallel 4 link w panhard up front. If parallel there shouldn't be any binding. Propane prooved you can do it w slightly triangulated links and still not bind. Kits not a big deal fro. A geometry standpoint. My biggest challenge will be space claim on the axle. Especially since I want to compress the axle tubes all the way to the frame rails. Last night I think I figured it out.....

 

[klampykixx]

Hozer has it. Sorry, but I have to put in my 2c.

my XJ has the standard issue parallel four link with panhard. obviously no binding because as soon as you remove the panhard it is able to swing not only up and down, but left to right. refit the panhard and it will only swing left and right within the arc of the pivot points.

normally a 3link with panhard is the same setup as a 4link with panhard but theres just one less link so in effect may as well be a 4link...

next up is a 3link that has a Y link on one side, and it basically acts as a radius arm, which still needs a panhard to keep in its central arc or it will let the axle move left and right. obviously this movement will be less than that of a parallel link due to an amount of triangulation but panhard is still a required link in this system.

last on my example list is a triangulated 4link. normally, you would have the upper links tapered in at the axle, wide at the chassis, and the lower links either parallel to each other or wider at the axle and closer at the body for double triangulated. in this situation the rotational pivot is at the top of the center of the axle. it tends to rotate but also slightly shift left and right with articulation. just by design this will happen.

if a panhard was to be introduced to a double triangulated 4link (which is designed for increased articulation normally) the panhard tends to swing in an arc from one side of the chassis. VS the triangulated setup trying to arc from the center of the chassis. In real worl situations, this would NOT normally be able to work. perhaps on a race car with a few inches of total movement and no body roll, or the example given above, where it was a low/Foff/Fast 4wd vehicle, and also having limited articulation.

but normally, if you want a panhard to keep the axle centered, you would not triangulate the links, because thats the panhard bar's job. and same goes for the opposite. triangulated links would normally bind up if a pahnard is fitted.

IMHO a triangulated 4 link is the way to go if there is room to do so. my current wraith based project will be getting a parallel 4link with panhard just like my 1:1 XJ.

 

[project_mayhem]

My triangulated 4link and panhard have no binding. Just saying.

It's binding. Just not enough to limit full articulation.

 

[Bulldog]

I hope nobody gets their panties in a bind over this thread. To me, these are the kind of threads where you actually learn something and get some useful information. "thumbsup"

I'm cracking up though, because there's an ADD research minded member out there somewhere who is reading all this information and pulling his hair out!:lmao:

Best advice...Read, reasearch, and experiment on your own. You'l find out quickly if things work or not on your own particular setup. And keep in mind, the scale game is a game of Millimeters...There are a lot of little numbers that all make a big difference. Angles, lengths, play in rod ends, inboard, outboard triangulated, four link, three link, y link. It's enough to fry your chip.

Then again, servo on the axle is a nice trick!:lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

[doublej]

Agreed Bulldog hence why I said - if ya think it works for you - Run It!
But I have tried to start a Suspension thread before. No one wanted to play. Lol

 

[hozer]

So the plan is to mount the lower link to the outside of the frame and to the outer position between the axle tabs. Ill use vp razor mounts to mount the base of the shock just above the lower link. Ill mount the upper link to the inside of the frame and then the other end to a double shear bracket mounted to the spring pad mounting holes (with an offset towards the diff to keep the links parallel). Ill attach the sway bar to the same double shear brackets. Finally the panhard will mount to the boxed in front of one of the double shears.