2013 Rules

[Erik D_lux]

My personal interpretation is...........

I would say no and would call that a course direction if I saw it.

I think the two above along with WAM's explanation are what really get to me and why I am so bothered. IMO, I dont agree that people should have an "interpretation" or an "opinion" on things. If it is not in the rules as being illegal, I see it as legal.

I will show the video. As far as I was concerned, the way its is driven in the video is legal, there is nothing in the rules that says other wise (I think). I think everybody else would have called it illegal though because they saw it as being an easier way or a non traditional way, which should have no bearing on the matter. Either its legal or not and that has no difference if you like the way its driven or if you think it was too easy. Black and white, no shades of gray.

Since the rules do not say anything about each axle having to "enter" on their own, I think its fair game to enter with any part of the rig and then the gate is considered "entered" and there is no way to enter the correct way or wrong way after that.

What I describe with the picture above is that...
... one wheel has ENTERed the gate (in the intended gate direction), and then EXITed

There is no definition or even mention of the word "exit" or "re enter". If we are talking about a fix or a solution I think youre on to something. If we are talking about current rules and following the USRCCA, I think you are out to lunch and just making stuff up which is hard to be consistent and fair.

 

[JeremyH]

I think the two above along with WAM's explanation are what really get to me and why I am so bothered. IMO, I dont agree that people should have an "interpretation" or an "opinion" on things. If it is not in the rules as being illegal, I see it as legal.

I agree. However, that would be a judge's call....and I gave my opinion based on what I would call.......as a judge.

There are specific situations that, when they arise, require a judgement to be made. You've made them, I've made them, anybody who has been a judge has made them. Unless we start using robots to judge a course, the human element will always be present and one person or another will not be happy with how that judge calls a situation. As long as the judge is equal and fair to all parties present, I don't see the issue.

 

[Erik D_lux]

What do you base that decision on? Feeling or facts?

 

[JeremyH]

What do you base that decision on? Feeling or facts?

Without seeing the situation, I can only infer as to what you mean. So please, give the facts....lets see a video of the instance.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Here is the vid...

It reminds me a bit of the gate question we had a BOTW. LOTS didnt like it but there was no rule against it. Deciding on feeling rather than fact is wrong IMO.

Rule question - YouTube

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/jOvCMuqSkwE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[JeremyH]

Deciding on feeling rather than fact is wrong IMO.

I agree.

Your video looks to me to not be following this portion of Rule 1.10:
"Progress is awarded when during the same attempt and in the intended course direction at least one front and one rear tire passes completely through the gate."

 

[Erik D_lux]

Your video looks to me to not be following this portion of Rule 1.10:
"Progress is awarded when during the same attempt

"thumbsup"

Perfect and very acceptable!

Edit:

LOL.

I think you could still argue that it was done on the same attempt and my progress was in the intended direction. The only question was whether or not I "entered" the wrong way and my original entry was not counted.

 

[Erik D_lux]

It seems like that would be a great fix.... "You must enter the gate you are attempting in the correct direction on each attempt."

 

[WAM]

"thumbsup"

Perfect and very acceptable!

Edit:

LOL.

I think you could still argue that it was done on the same attempt and my progress was in the intended direction. The only question was whether or not I "entered" the wrong way and my original entry was not counted.

Front tires went thru gate, left to right (is that correct direction?). When did a rear tire ever go thru the gate left to right? How can there be any question? What am I missing?

 

[Erik D_lux]

Yes, front went through left to right which is correct.

Rears went through on the back flip.

 

[WAM]

In my mind the backflip never happened. As soon as you enter from the wrong direction the judge is to stop time and pick up the car.

"Gates must be cleared in their intended direction and sequence. Any part
of the vehicle entering an un-cleared gate in the wrong direction, or driven through out of sequence will result in a 10 point penalty. The judge will stop time. The vehicle is then moved back by the driver to the previously cleared gate with the rear axle aligned to that gate."

So I guess you're saying that because you initially entered the gate from the right direction and then backed out...from then on you can ignore the sequence rule? Interesting interpretation. Especially from someone who doesn't like interpretations.

 

[Erik D_lux]

So I guess you're saying that because you initially entered the gate from the right direction and then backed out...from then on you can ignore the sequence rule?

Its already been determined that you can straddle a gate with your fronts and then back up getting the tire that was outside the gate inside now and thats good.

I dont see anywhere in the rules that has a definition of exiting or re enter. If you watch the video, I entered both front and rear axles in the correct direction.

If you attempt a gate and then reverse your fronts for another re attempt that is NOT entering a gate backwards. How can you see it two different ways if its the same situation? Would you feel better if I would have backed through the gate and flipped forwards?

 

[ittybitty]

Yep that's the catch on this one...you must clear the gate and be awarded progress before you can enter the gate from the wrong direction. So like WAM said...if I was judging this I would have stopped time, repo'd the truck to the previous gate and gone from there.

 

[Erik D_lux]

Looks like maybe this will be an "agree to disagree" on this situation.

I just dont see how sometimes its acceptable to reverse and go the wrong direction but its not in others.... at least not without a rule to back you up.

 

[WAM]

Looks like maybe this will be an "agree to disagree" on this situation.

I just dont see how sometimes its acceptable to reverse and go the wrong direction but its not in others.... at least not without a rule to back you up.

There is a rule. Says you can't enter an unprogressed gate from wrong direction. We're just saying it applies to the video and I guess you think it doesn't.

 

[Erik D_lux]

So how do you justify driving your fronts through a gate, not being able to make it and then having to reverse back through?

That gate would not be progressed and you just went through the wrong way....

 

[ROWDY RACING]

So how do you justify driving your fronts through a gate, not being able to make it and then having to reverse back through?

That gate would not be progressed and you just went through the wrong way....

You entered in the correct direction and exited in the unintended direction.

 

[WAM]

So how do you justify driving your fronts through a gate, not being able to make it and then having to reverse back through?

That gate would not be progressed and you just went through the wrong way....

If putting a car half way into a gate and then backing out means I'm now entering the gate backwards, I see your point.

But if you recall, my unofficial interpretation was you only get one "enter" until the vehicle is completely clear the gate. So no harm, no foul.

I know you don't like that I made that interpretation, but two things: 1) I said we did it for our own use. and 2) The rule book has to be interpreted by judges or it would be 5000 pages long and growing. You can't cover every possibility so that no brain required.

 

[Erik D_lux]

You entered in the correct direction and exited in the unintended direction.

Where did you come up with this? I dont see anywhere in the rules where it mentions "exited".

If putting a car half way into a gate and then backing out means I'm now entering the gate backwards, I see your point.

Yes, that is the point I am making. I cant see having one without the other. Either its wrong to go the incorrect direction or its not. You cant pick and choose (without a rule) when to allow it.

But if you recall, my unofficial interpretation was you only get one "enter" until the vehicle is completely clear the gate. So no harm, no foul.

I know you don't like that I made that interpretation, but two things: 1) I said we did it for our own use. and 2) The rule book has to be interpreted by judges or it would be 5000 pages long and growing. You can't cover every possibility so that no brain required.

I think its great that West coast has this figured out for themselves. Good job. This thread and forum is for the USRCCA rules, not your own clubs or personal interpretation. My concern is for everybody else that wants to follow the official rules.

I am not sure you could cover every possibility either but it would be awesome if some effort was put in to do so. If you think the straddle rule/entry rule is even close to being refined, these last couple of posts proved that wrong and we have even figured out how to fix it so there is no confusion. You even said yourself that you got sick of not having answers so you figured them out yourself. How come you and other individuals can come up with solutions on their own but we cannot do that nationally?

 

[ROWDY RACING]

Where did you come up with this? I dont see anywhere in the rules where it mentions "exited".

Never said exited was in the rules, did'nt know every word I used had to be in the rules, just trying to help you.