Do you believe in God,Heaven or Hell?

[Duuuuuuuude]

Thats a matter of opinion. I think in many ways the tech era we're in can be more of a hinderance than an aid. Anything involving 1s and 0s can be manipulated in much the same way that stories passed down can alter through the telling of them.

Just because gathering data is faster today doesnt mean it makes forming a conclusion any easier.

For example, given the choice of going through 1000s of different links to articles online about christianity, or reading one of the main 3 versions of the actual book in order to form my own conclusion, I would choose the latter.

Given, thats not the case in all situations.

There is a lot of garbage out there, that's for sure. However, you do have the tools at hand to sort it out.

Take the burning snowball/fake snow/chemtrail thing. A whole lot of people are so willing to believe that the government is dumping chemical laden snow on them that they can't stop for a second and think about what they are doing or saying, or why the snowballs appear to be "burnt" or why the snow really tastes bad.

Spend a few minutes researching it and there are lots of perfectly reasonable and not at all underhanded reasons why the snow reacts the way it does.

Are there chemtrails? Sure, but not every fawking contrail in the sky is gubberment poison.


Debunking religion is an entirely different matter, and requires a different approach because you are dealing with the supernatural and history, not tangible items or current events.

 

[WHITE-TRASH]

Like I said a matter of opinion. In many cases what you see on the interwebz is not only second hand info but 3rd or 4th or 5th etc. ;-)

You are correct. The thing is one can have multiple sources, opinions, ideas etc etc on the 'puter rather than reading the words out of single source. Yes there are many sources and interpretations of "the word of god" but religion clouds most peoples judgement on the subject.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Like I said a matter of opinion. In many cases what you see on the interwebz is not only second hand info but 3rd or 4th or 5th etc. ;-)

I've got a handful of friends that have totally sworn off main stream media (a good thing) but are sadly now relying on Facebook and CT blogs for their info (they're better off with the MSM). Listen to them long enough and you'd be convinced that Obama is just a few days and one Executive Order away from declaring Marshal Law, the Chinese are preparing to invade, and the gubberment can detect all of the new $100 bills you have in your house from 30,000 feet via a x-ray equipped spyplane.

So yes, info can be definitely be sketchy, but just a wee bit of info and some rational thinking will make it easy to brush away.

 

[RANOVRU]

Debunking religion is an entirely different matter, and requires a different approach because you are dealing with the supernatural and history, not tangible items or current events.

Not true. "Supernatural" only applies if, well, you think that way. It is a purely subjeective topic. History is history. There are no current events that explain history. There are tangible facts on both sides, much more on one side than the other though.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Not true. "Supernatural" only applies if, well, you think that way. It is a purely subjeective topic. History is history. There are no current events that explain history. There are tangible facts on both sides, much more on one side than the other though.

That's why I said it takes a different approach. ;-)

You can't investigate Jesus walking on water in the same manner that you investigate burning snowballs. One is a supernatural event that can't be proved conclusively either way, the other can be sorted out using a wee bit of science and some common sense. Subject matter makes the difference.

 

[RANOVRU]

You are correct. The thing is one can have multiple sources, opinions, ideas etc etc on the 'puter rather than reading the words out of single source. Yes there are many sources and interpretations of "the word of god" but religion clouds most peoples judgement on the subject.

Ive got one better for you. If one wanted to learn about how this country is 'supposed' to operate, would you suggest they google what other people have said about their interpretation of say, the constitution, or would you tell them to just read the constitution itself?

Granted, 200 years and 2000 are quite different in time, but theres no one alive today that was there when the founding fathers were around.

 

[RANOVRU]

That's why I said it takes a different approach. ;-)

You can't investigate Jesus walking on water in the same manner that you investigate burning snowballs. One is a supernatural event that can't be proved conclusively either way, the other can be sorted out using a wee bit of science and some common sense. Subject matter makes the difference.

Nah, I disagree. They are both equally ludacris and can be equally dismissed easily.

 

[WHITE-TRASH]

Ive got one better for you. If one wanted to learn about how this country is 'supposed' to operate, would you suggest they google what other people have said about their interpretation of say, the constitution, or would you tell them to just read the constitution itself?

Granted, 200 years and 2000 are quite different in time, but theres no one alive today that was there when the founding fathers were around.

The words written in the Constitution are in plain English. The only interpretative issues are due to lawyers translating those words into a language only other lawyers understand and twisting those simple ideas into something they are not. Seems the same could be said for the bible just on a larger scale.

 

[Generis]

We have glorified 'religion' into something it shouldn't be... it shouldn't be considered a 'power' or force at all. Technically and by definition it's not.
I'm going to sit on a chair, and I have faith believing that this chair will support my weight and stay standing upright in it's proper place. I assume the materials are up to the task, and it's not made out of paper with a hollow core, and just looks like a chair. The act of sitting on the chair requires a basic level of trust and belief.
This is the same principle in every religion. No matter what bent it is coming from, every religion out there his holding to some trust or belief and people take actions based on that belief. Consequently, those who have 'no religion' are lying. They also have beliefs and premises that they hold to, and they act based on those, and therefore all of us are in fact 'religious', having no regard to whether you attend a church or mosque or chapel or NOT. All of us stand to believe something they can't see, trust something they don't touch or feel in the present, so we are all believing beings.
How religion has come to have so much clout in the world is the same way that everything else comes to power. Force. It's sad to say, but most of the things we call 'religion' today came to power and stature by taking over governance of people, using force to get their way, etc. It's a mess.
To get to the original thread title's question, Yes I'd claim to be a believer in God, Heaven, Hell. But as the bible says, even the demons of the bible believe in that. Saying you believe in God doesn't account for much, even according to the bible. Even Jesus said that.
I'm really happy to offer high respect for anyone of any religion that can say they truly live by their beliefs. That it makes a difference in every decision, action, speech, etc. And that goes for the secularist, humanist, buddist, islamist, and all. If you really believe in freedom of expression, right to life, biblical inerrancy, karma, or whatever, then make sure it shows in what you do, so at least people watching can tell that it matters to you-when you say with your mouth you are a this or that believer.
Here's a couple of interesting articles on the changing trends of this subject:

Between 1700 and 1740, an estimated 75 to 80 percent of the population attended churches Religion in Eighteenth-Century America

Newport: "I would say that ... 4 out of every 10 Americans represent themselves as being regular churchgoers," he says. "But that does not mean that they are in church 52 weeks a year." Statistical Illusion

More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s Gallup: Believe in God?

Conclusion: Most of america apparently believes in God. It doesn't matter.



... Or does it?

 

[SwampDawg]

The words written in the Constitution are in plain English. The only interpretative issues are due to lawyers translating those words into a language only other lawyers understand and twisting those simple ideas into something they are not. Seems the same could be said for the bible just on a larger scale.

sounds like the collective agreement we follow called a Union. :lmao:

 

[RANOVRU]

The words written in the Constitution are in plain English. The only interpretative issues are due to lawyers translating those words into a language only other lawyers understand and twisting those simple ideas into something they are not. Seems the same could be said for the bible just on a larger scale.

You missed the boat on my last post you quoted. The only difference between christianitys changing throughout time and the basis for which this country was founded getting changed through time is that we're actually getting to see the latter happen first hand. So for us it offers some understanding. What kind of info will be around 1000yrs from now on what is currently happening is anyones guess, kind of like the bible. Do not think that it is 'just' a lanuage/translation issue.


That wasnt my point though. If someone who knew nothing about the US of A wanted to learn about the founding of this country would you tell them to search through interpretations on the webz or just read the damn document in plain english?

 

[RANOVRU]

Generis I agree that some type of "faith" is the cornerstone of most religions. However everyday occurences do not make "faith" factual. I can build you a million chairs without ever sitting in them myself and guarantee, or KNOW, that they will not fail. Its a matter a fact. Same goes for crossing the road trying to get to work or any other typical argument one would make at this point. If there are no cars coming for as far as you can see you will make it across the road. However if you want to play leap frog in oncoming traffic or stare at your iphone all the way to work then yes you might need some "faith". But even at that point youre still just refering to an ideal from dumb people, not something actual.

 

[Canyon Crawler]

:evil: 666 :evil:

 

[RANOVRU]

Generis I did not make it to your ratios and links at first. Although nowhere near accurate they are good for a laugh.

You can find as many links as you want with a simple search that say things like there are more athiests than there are african americans in this country currently. My and your senarios are perfect examples of the misinformation on the web that I mentioned earlier with Duuude.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

We have glorified 'religion' into something it shouldn't be... it shouldn't be considered a 'power' or force at all. Technically and by definition it's not.

True.

This is the same principle in every religion. No matter what bent it is coming from, every religion out there his holding to some trust or belief and people take actions based on that belief. Consequently, those who have 'no religion' are lying. They also have beliefs and premises that they hold to, and they act based on those, and therefore all of us are in fact 'religious', having no regard to whether you attend a church or mosque or chapel or NOT. All of us stand to believe something they can't see, trust something they don't touch or feel in the present, so we are all believing beings.

Also true, but the question that almost always follows "are you religious" is "what church do you go to".

How religion has come to have so much clout in the world is the same way that everything else comes to power. Force. It's sad to say, but most of the things we call 'religion' today came to power and stature by taking over governance of people, using force to get their way, etc. It's a mess.

Also also true. A lot of blood was spilled to bring the worlds most popular religions up out of cult status.

Saying you believe in God doesn't account for much, even according to the bible. Even Jesus said that.

Only if you put stock in the bible. I believe there is a god (little G), but do not believe in God (big G) as presented in the Old and New Testaments, nor any other holy book for that matter. Nor do I care what the bible says about what my belief accounts for.

I'm really happy to offer high respect for anyone of any religion that can say they truly live by their beliefs. That it makes a difference in every decision, action, speech, etc. And that goes for the secularist, humanist, buddist, islamist, and all. If you really believe in freedom of expression, right to life, biblical inerrancy, karma, or whatever, then make sure it shows in what you do, so at least people watching can tell that it matters to you-when you say with your mouth you are a this or that believer.

"thumbsup"

Here's a couple of interesting articles on the changing trends of this subject:

Between 1700 and 1740, an estimated 75 to 80 percent of the population attended churches Religion in Eighteenth-Century America

Newport: "I would say that ... 4 out of every 10 Americans represent themselves as being regular churchgoers," he says. "But that does not mean that they are in church 52 weeks a year." Statistical Illusion

More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s Gallup: Believe in God?

Conclusion: Most of america apparently believes in God. It doesn't matter.

... Or does it?

It depends on who they consider "God" to be. In North America people usually equate the word "God" with "Yahweh". A more accurate poll question would be "do you believe in the Christian God?". IMO the numbers would change.

You also have to account for the people that attend church just because they feel they have to, not because they actually and wholeheartedly believe. And, skipping a week isn't cause for damnation. Church was never part of the salvation plan. It isn't necessary.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Generis I agree that some type of "faith" is the cornerstone of most religions. However everyday occurences do not make "faith" factual. I can build you a million chairs without ever sitting in them myself and guarantee, or KNOW, that they will not fail. Its a matter a fact.

Maybe so, but he still has to have faith that your chair building skills are up to the task, and that your opinion of your own work is not overblown. ;-)


He is right though...everyone has faith in something, and faith is not a word that is wholly pinned to religion or belief in a deity.

If you've ever purchased enough food to last you a week or even a couple of days, you are exhibiting faith that you will live long enough to eat it. If you've ever filled up the gas tank on your vehicle, you are exhibiting faith that you will use it all.

Faith can be had in anything.

 

[Meatwad]

While I agree about faith in certain instances, like walking down the street I have faith in most humans to not want to intentionally maim me. Although that's more about self awareness and personal liability...

There are also points of references, food production has a certain parts per million measurement for crap in food. Or if I go to a lumber yard, I don't need faith to buy a quarter ton of rock... a scale is the reference. But then I can also trust in the corruption of men trying to count the pallet in that measurement :mrgreen:

Even with the rambling I have a point, that there are agreed upon and repeatable references/procedures. So faith can be taken out of the equation. For instance the chair, if the agreed upon correct wood for durability was used and the agreed upon correct fasteners with an agreed upon correct procedure was used there would be no issue with durability... regardless of chair manufacturer. Sit without worry "thumbsup"

 

[RANOVRU]

Maybe so, but he still has to have faith that your chair building skills are up to the task, and that your opinion of your own work is not overblown. ;-)


He is right though...everyone has faith in something, and faith is not a word that is wholly pinned to religion or belief in a deity.

If you've ever purchased enough food to last you a week or even a couple of days, you are exhibiting faith that you will live long enough to eat it. If you've ever filled up the gas tank on your vehicle, you are exhibiting faith that you will use it all.

Faith can be had in anything.

Now youre sounding like 'faith' isnt a personal choice, and that only adds to the rediculousness of the term.

The idea that people just inherently have to have 'faith' in day to day interactions disgusts me. And its utterly stupid.

One might 'hope' things turn out day to day, but IMO that pretty much falls into the luck catagory.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Now youre sounding like 'faith' isnt a personal choice, and that only adds to the rediculousness of the term.

The idea that people just inherantly have to have 'faith' in day to day interactions disgusts me. And its uterly stupid.

One might 'hope' things turn out day to day, but IMO that pretty much falls into the luck catagory.

I think you are still tying having faith to having religion, or to being religious. Simply put, faith is trust. It can be founded trust, or it can be blind trust. Either way, you are putting stock in a future that you cannot completely foretell.

 

[RANOVRU]

^ how the term 'faith' gets misinterpreted down through time.