Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd 4.0 Berg

[Szczerba]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Axle weight

Maybe

lmao. hey shane i was wondering if your going to drill holes in the production foam. im going to be ordering 2 sets. one for my khaos and one for my sedona. thanks

Yes. forgot to mention that. I just snapped a couple pictures of the new ones that came in the mail yesterday. All the closed cell inners will need to be vented. I usually do 4-8, 1/4" holes. I try to line them up with my holes in my SLW's but the SLW's are channeled so its not a big deal to line them up.

Right.

Intrested in the Weight Front compare the Rear

my weight was about : front 49 OZ rear 32 Oz

Like each weighed separately? I can do that later today.

 

[Szczerba]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Right.

Intrested in the Weight Front compare the Rear

my weight was about : front 49 OZ rear 32 Oz

Total weight of chassis/axles etc (including battery) minus wheel/tires
52.3 oz

Chassis (including battery, links, esc's, etc)
11.0 oz

Rear Axle
15.3 oz

Front Axle
26.0 oz

 

[Szczerba]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Pictures from the ARCC Petit Jean comp.

Truck looked good but my driving skills did not.
Not to mention it was 19 degrees and windy when we started course 1. :shock:
Thanks to Helhedded for the pictures.
RolandRockShop was filming the whole time. Those will be up before too long.

...

 

[klabeaume]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Truck looks great Shane, are you still happy about the switch from the ss?

 

[Szczerba]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Truck looks great Shane, are you still happy about the switch from the ss?

Not yet . . . You seen my last two comp placements? 5th and 5th at the last two comps :shock:

Either I am loosing my touch at driving or I just haven't found this trucks sweet spot in the setup. I have had barely 7-8 practice packs at my house since I put this together. The only other running I have is two comps. This time of year is busy for my career. But alot of it is my lack of time to setup and tune it.
The SS was an "axle swap and crawl" setup. The Secret Agent requires some tuning to find the correct setup or at least in my case.

I think alot of it is the light weight. It's a big difference in my SS setup that was ~5lbs 10oz. Two completely different driving styles. With a light truck you have to slow all your speeds down to keep traction. But then know when to hammer down for verticals and other crawls. The light truck pushes alot more too but that can be tuned out.

I'll keep at it. "thumbsup"

 

[helhedded]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

thanks for letting me drive your truck. It felt really nice!

 

[jcboof]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

The light truck pushes alot more too but that can be tuned out.

0 Ackerman knuckles . Makes a world o difference, at least for me. I never thought much about the 0 ackerman stuff until I tried it. Truck feels soooooo much better when turning.

 

[4xFord]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Total weight of chassis/axles etc (including battery) minus wheel/tires
52.3 oz

Chassis (including battery, links, esc's, etc)
11.0 oz

Rear Axle
15.3 oz

Front Axle
26.0 oz

I think what Manu was asking for is your RTR bias. Meaning weigh the front and rear axles with the car level, and see how much heavier your front is.

My agent car at 4lbs 14oz has a 19 oz front weight bias. And balances in front of the front rod end screws.

I would add front weight until the balance point moves to at least the front rod end screws. Also, Jesse is right about zero Ackerman. Y'all could have been enjoying the benefits of zero Ackerman and disliking the KPI with your 8* setups at the same time.

 

[4xFord]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

She sure does look good though!

 

[Szczerba]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

thanks for letting me drive your truck. It felt really nice!

So it guess it's not the truck it's the driver!

0 Ackerman knuckles . Makes a world o difference, at least for me. I never thought much about the 0 ackerman stuff until I tried it. Truck feels soooooo much better when turning.

yea, those were going to be my next tuning option.

I think what Manu was asking for is your RTR bias. Meaning weigh the front and rear axles with the car level, and see how much heavier your front is.

My agent car at 4lbs 14oz has a 19 oz front weight bias. And balances in front of the front rod end screws.

I would add front weight until the balance point moves to at least the front rod end screws. Also, Jesse is right about zero Ackerman. Y'all could have been enjoying the benefits of zero Ackerman and disliking the KPI with your 8* setups at the same time.

I tired that before I measured out the axles. I think the difference was 10-12oz or so. I can redo that.
D-Lux knuckle weights ordered for more weight that will allow me to get narrower track width when needed. 10.75" wide all around now.

I also ordered a D-Lux rear upper axle mount to see if I need more anti-squat out back, since I am on the lowest hole in the chassis.

She sure does look good though!

"thumbsup"

 

[helhedded]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

I think what Manu was asking for is your RTR bias. Meaning weigh the front and rear axles with the car level, and see how much heavier your front is.

My agent car at 4lbs 14oz has a 19 oz front weight bias. And balances in front of the front rod end screws.

I would add front weight until the balance point moves to at least the front rod end screws. Also, Jesse is right about zero Ackerman. Y'all could have been enjoying the benefits of zero Ackerman and disliking the KPI with your 8* setups at the same time.

on the steering...
For me Zero ackerman worked better with the 8*... it gave more caster to the inside tire and that kept it out of the shock and links. I ran Zero-Ackerman non 8* and the push was even worse due to the inside tire now hitting the lower link and shock. One way to really take advantage of the non 8* zero ackerman without any binding is by running a .75" wide front wheel.

 

[4xFord]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

on the steering...
For me Zero ackerman worked better with the 8*... it gave more caster to the inside tire and that kept it out of the shock and links. I ran Zero-Ackerman non 8* and the push was even worse due to the inside tire now hitting the lower link and shock. One way to really take advantage of the non 8* zero ackerman without any binding is by running a .75" wide front wheel.

That is interesting. But you said it yourself, the castor helps with the push, so how about more castor non 8* zero ackerman? (Sounds like a starbucks order...:ror

I loved zero ackerman with castor on my old berg.

 

[jcboof]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

One way to really take advantage of the non 8* zero ackerman without any binding is by running a .75" wide front wheel.

I'll agree with ya there Ashton, But if you run wide enough offset, it is no longer an issue. You're gonna have rubbing no matter what you do with the amount of steering out of the super 300s. I'm running at 11" wide up front and yes, I'm getting into my links just a little, but that is a payoff I'm willing to get for precise steering. My truck doesn't push even the slightest amount any more. And that is with my lightweight setup too @ 5lbs 5oz. But caster is the key for the non 8* set-up. I run about 17-18* of caster on mine and its money!

My non 8* 0 Ack setup right now is a night and day difference from my old standard knuckle. I'm liking it so much, I'm on the fence whether or not I even want to try out the 8* setup.

 

[helhedded]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

That is interesting. But you said it yourself, the castor helps with the push, so how about more castor non 8* zero ackerman? (Sounds like a starbucks order...:ror

I loved zero ackerman with castor on my old berg.

Just a few things I noticed from testing 8* zero, non8* zero, and non8* non-zero. Shane was doing the same thing, so we were able to compare results across state over the phone. The setups all have their pros and cons. More caster and zero ackerman sounds like win to me. It'd just take a little more work for me with the current setup that I run. Shane, not so much since he isn't cramming everything underneath the upper links like I am on my truck. He could probably kick his axle down some (by shorter uppers) and gain more caster. Then there's always the option to clock tubes. It's doable for sure... just takes a little work here and there.

I'll agree with ya there Ashton, But if you run wide enough offset, it is no longer an issue. You're gonna have rubbing no matter what you do with the amount of steering out of the super 300s. I'm running at 11" wide up front and yes, I'm getting into my links just a little, but that is a payoff I'm willing to get for precise steering. My truck doesn't push even the slightest amount any more. And that is with my lightweight setup too @ 5lbs 5oz. But caster is the key for the non 8* set-up. I run about 17-18* of caster on mine and its money!

My non 8* 0 Ack setup right now is a night and day difference from my old standard knuckle. I'm liking it so much, I'm on the fence whether or not I even want to try out the 8* setup.

Understood, but wider trucks hit more gates! I have had super spectacular results with zero ackerman, non 8* and a narrow wheel. It keeps the track width down while staying out of the suspension.

 

[krawlfreak]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

I'll agree with ya there Ashton, But if you run wide enough offset, it is no longer an issue. You're gonna have rubbing no matter what you do with the amount of steering out of the super 300s. I'm running at 11" wide up front and yes, I'm getting into my links just a little, but that is a payoff I'm willing to get for precise steering. My truck doesn't push even the slightest amount any more. And that is with my lightweight setup too @ 5lbs 5oz. But caster is the key for the non 8* set-up. I run about 17-18* of caster on mine and its money!

My non 8* 0 Ack setup right now is a night and day difference from my old standard knuckle. I'm liking it so much, I'm on the fence whether or not I even want to try out the 8* setup.

Just a few things I noticed from testing 8* zero, non8* zero, and non8* non-zero. Shane was doing the same thing, so we were able to compare results across state over the phone. The setups all have their pros and cons. More caster and zero ackerman sounds like win to me. It'd just take a little more work for me with the current setup that I run. Shane, not so much since he isn't cramming everything underneath the upper links like I am on my truck. He could probably kick his axle down some (by shorter uppers) and gain more caster. Then there's always the option to clock tubes. It's doable for sure... just takes a little work here and there.



Understood, but wider trucks hit more gates! I have had super spectacular results with zero ackerman, non 8* and a narrow wheel. It keeps the track width down while staying out of the suspension.

i really think the 8* dilema you guys are experiencing is the amount of scrub you are re-inducing due to the amount of wheel hub you are using.

the whole idea behind the 8* setup is to eliminate scrub... if you dont understand the theory of the king pin inclination and you space the hell out of the wheel to get the desired width or clearances for steering you are actually making the steering physics worse than using a non 8* setup.

there is a very specific wheel spacing to tire size combination that you should be using to not hinder the advantage of the 8* setups. you have to be in the general vicinity to not have really negative results.

see image....

"D" in the diagram is specifically important to what you are describing

in my opinion....this is what all this dilema sounds like to me.

good luck"thumbsup"

 

[helhedded]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

i really think the 8* dilema you guys are experiencing is the amount of scrub you are re-inducing due to the amount of wheel hub you are using.

the whole idea behind the 8* setup is to eliminate scrub... if you dont understand the theory of the king pin inclination and you space the hell out of the wheel to get the desired width or clearances for steering you are actually making the steering physics worse than using a non 8* setup.

there is a very specific wheel spacing to tire size combination that you should be using to not hinder the advantage of the 8* setups. you have to be in the general vicinity to not have really negative results.

see image....

"D" in the diagram is specifically important to what you are describing

in my opinion....this is what all this dilema sounds like to me.

good luck"thumbsup"

Correct... but I think that we are past the dilemma part. I quickly found that a wider hub setup and 8* isn't allowing the 8* to work like it should. Your posts helped too, but I didn't really notice the Cons that everyone talks about until I did some testing and put the 8* on my ax10 sport truck. The cons were very noticeable with a large hub and 8* on that narrow axle. I did have pretty good results with a narrow hub on a 10.5" wide berg truck and 8*, but I didn't really see a reason to keep it on the berg. It does work pretty decent with a ton of knuckle weight, but again... I don't see a reason to have 8oz of knuckle weight per side with my setup. Just my opinion and it's my setup... wait I thought this was Shane's build.

:ror:

 

[Szczerba]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Changes over about 9-10 battery packs. Kinda in this order.

1. Got in D-Lux knuckle weights and added a brew of homemade add on weights to get to 4.2oz total each side. Truck is 5lbs 4.8oz RTR

2. Narrowed up to 10.75" up front and 10.5" out back

3. Pink springs up front with 40wt oil, still 3 hole pistons
and swapped out to 2.75" Losi 1.2lb black springs out back, 40wt oil, still 3 hole pistons

4. I was running the upper links all the way down on chassis front and rear. The truck was doing ok but struggling with steep verticals, it would suck down but not grab. So I got to thinking, that's alot of anti-squat on both ends. Figured that might be a place to start since the truck was right at 5lbs with that setup.
Moved the rear uppers all the up ran a pack. Moved the front uppers one up from top, in addition to changing the rears, ran a pack. I could tell the truck was grabbing and holding on verticals and had more traction overall. That is the same link placement I have run on most of my berg setups.

5. Was running 11mm of external limit up front and none out back
Now running 6mm external limit up front and 5mm ext. limit out back

Truck is riding alot better now. Feels like my old SS, minus some rear shock spring tweaking still. The 1.2lbs blacks maybe a touch too firm.

In case anyone wants to know.
Mini T Spring rates. Thanks to Helhedded (assuming he is correct)
Rear (Long)
Silver (Soft) - 0.83 lbs
Green (Med) - 1.52 lbs
Blue (Firm) - 1.69 lbs

Front (Short)
Pink (Soft) - 0.86 lbs
Red (Med) - 1.38 lbs
Orange (Firm) - 2.04 lbs

Quick video of a ledge at my rock pile at the house. Previous upper link setup would not crawl this ledge. Semi slick rock and and almost 2 year old Khaos with CrawlerInnovations Closed cell inners, soft outers up front, medium outers with medium tuning ring out back.

<code><iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/37283581?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0&color=ff9933" width="601" height="339" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe></code>

 

[4xFord]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

The bias looks a lot better! That is the geomety that Krawlfreak ran at 6lbs, or at least really close. So that makes some sense I guess. I gotta think the extra front weight/new bias plays a big role also.

Maybe try the reds in the rear? Also in the pics your front shocks look almost completely bottomed out! How much does the car sag under its own weight?

 

[Szczerba]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

The bias looks a lot better! That is the geomety that Krawlfreak ran at 6lbs, or at least really close. So that makes some sense I guess. I gotta think the extra front weight/new bias plays a big role also.

Maybe try the reds in the rear? Also in the pics your front shocks look almost completely bottomed out! How much does the car sag under its own weight?

I could tell the truck was getting better with small front weight additions. I added the 4.2oz to each side and it still wasn't climbing verticals well. No bite. So I raised the rear uppers and then the front.

I just tossed the truck down for a quick IPhone picture, so don't go by the shock travel in that picture. Was more for link placement. I forgot about all the eagle eye's out there too! :ror: But the truck has the normal amount of sag, nothing out wack.
I really noticed alot more chassis/shock movement after changing the upper link locations. The truck started floating over the rocks.

The Reds are 1.38lbs I am currently running 2.75" losi 1.2lbs blacks. I need a 1.0 lbs rear spring!

 

[4xFord]

Re: Szczerba's 2012 Secret Agent'd Berg

Those spring rates are way off IMO (not Ashton's fault but Losi's). The blue rears are significantly softer than losi golds. The pink fronts are softer than the silver rears. I would go by feel of hand and on the car. "thumbsup"

It could also just be that the smaller spring see's more leverage due to its smaller OD?