Petition/poll ~ Keep bodiless rigs in Sportsman!!!!

[C*H*U*D]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

It's up to the clubs to make sure that those people have fun. It is not up to the national rules committee, unless it's just to make suggestions, such as having an option for a 20pt carry rule. Otherwise, the individual clubs have a better feel for what it takes to attract and retain people in their area.

I agree with this 100%. We had a guy show up last Sunday for our scale event. He had an AX-10 with half of a lexan pickup body on it. Everyone decided to let him run anyway, but just not score him. He understood why and had a great time instead of heading home. I bet he comes back.

One thing I think about is all the people that own a Frogger, Moonbuggy, Fastback, etc., that just crawl for fun, and don't attend comps. What if one day they decide to give a comp a try, they show up and are turned away because their truck is no longer legal? Aren't those casual crawlers just as important as a total outsider? What can be done to get the casual driver to show up and drive? Banning their rig isn't going to help.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by mindless

Can i bring up one more point with out being an a$$. Why is the committee even having a vote on this, when was there an issue that made this need to be addressed. Are they trying to show they are doing something or what. This just is a case of fix it till its broke. If it isnt broke dont fix it!

So lets ban bodiless from 1.9 super and pro also and then make 2 classes for each one of those. Have a pro and am and shafty and trucks with over 5.5" tires and those with under and then off the self tires and cut and shuts and.... yea you get the idea its ridiculous. We are here to push the limits of what we have and what we like no need to regulate that.

Because there is no dedicated shafted class at the national level.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I guess you have not noticed the dwindling #s at national events. That is what this is really about, hence the reasoning. If the national level events fail where does that leave the clubs that are only sanctioned to get a nationals bid.

You don't have to understand it...or except it, but that is the reasoning. Like I said before maybe it was flawed.

The fact is growing the sport may take sacrifice from some. I am willing are you?

I fail to see how national attendance correlates with the amount of new drivers in the sport. Maybe you should poll your local clubs, see how many qualified for nationals, and then see why those who did decided not to show.

Anyone ever think that some people who would like to go are either unwilling or incapable of traveling? Its not exactly cheap to take time off of work, drive or fly across the country, and stay in a motel for a few nights. Especially when we are talking about playing with toy trucks. People have jobs and families and other responsibilities that have a much higher priority.

If we want more new drivers, we need to get the manufacturers involved and educate our otherwise ignorant LHS's. They are the ones most responsible for putting new rigs in new drivers' hands. We need to be sure that they are knowledgeable about their products and what it takes to be competitive. How many new drivers show up with RTR's with stick packs strapped to the top? How many of them look at our rigs and ask themselves what piece of crap did the hobby shop sell them? Most of the time when I go to a hobby shop and say the word "crawler", their eyes roll back in their head and they take on a sudden air of disinterest. That is where the greatest division of equality lies.

[mindless]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

Because there is no dedicated shafted class at the national level.

Well i was more getting at the body to bodiless debate. Is there any reason besides looks to ban them i dont get it.

I guess i just dont understand i dont know.

[stevejr]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

I agree with this. It's a trickle down effect.

If the people already at the comp have a positive attitude, are welcoming, and having fun, that will do far more to attract and retain newcomers than anything else.

My view of the rules committee is simply to have a standard set of rules in effect that allow people to have fun without having too many loopholes for people to bend or cheat. It shouldn't be our place to regulate the hobby.

I went to my first comp this summer as I am new to the hobby. It was a W.Pa.C. local event. The guys running a bodied crawler or bodiless crawler had no bearing on the fact that I was at the next comp. It was the great people like Evil Twin v2, Stick King, RCKRWLR, etc that brought me back.

I know I am just a newbie but I don't see how running a body is going to bring more attention to a sportsman/comp event. I think showcasing what the class can do would.

[Stormin2u]

Originally Posted by C*H*U*D

I also don't think this should be a lynch mob type of discussion. The Rules Committee does a very thankless job, and I applaud their efforts to make things better. I don't care who voted, how they cast their vote or why.

I just hope that there was some serious thought as to how this would help, and it's not just an experiment or a "Hey, what if..." kind of decision. Even if I didn't make a chassis that is used in Sportsman, I would see this as a bad direction for Sporty to go.

Since Committee members are posting here, then that means the rule definitely has passed. Does this take effect for next year, or is it something that will be implemented immediately? If there is enough interest, can this be changed? If so, how much interest is needed for it to be looked at again?

I think something has been wrong for a long time. The way the 2.2 shaft truck was immediately served a leathal does of rules when the MOA hit the scene was imo short sighted, the 2.2 really turned into a useless object 10 cents on the dollar. Then it got served a the final blow by the LOSI 1.9 shafty class imagine that. I'm guess I'm grateful for every thing everyone has done but I'm not ready to worship at the feet of how well things have gone going just yet. It doesn't seem anyone is listening.

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I guess you have not noticed the dwindling #s at national events. That is what this is really about, hence the reasoning. If the national level events fail where does that leave the clubs that are only sanctioned to get a nationals bid.

You don't have to understand it...or except it, but that is the reasoning. Like I said before maybe it was flawed.

The fact is growing the sport may take sacrifice from some. I am willing are you?

Sure of course, we have been making all sorts of sacrifices all a long, we know all about that. The reason the Nats are seeing fewer numbers is because that's what the clubs are experiencing.

Is this the old chicken or egg debate? I'd say if we don't have solid affordable programs at the club level the Nats can expect more of the same.

The 2.2 shafty can be a better workhorse than anything I can think of. Let's face it the interest and rebirth of the Sportsman class proves that. People are loving it just look a some of the rigs being built. It's not going to be a specific rookie entry class but they will be well taken care of. The thing that's exciting is it's looking like a open shafty class and that has many of us more exciting than we've been in years. The rookies aren't joining us thinking the should be winning on day one or leaving because they are intimidated, they are leaving us because we look like a big fat money pit. Retention of existing long term members is the bigger overall issue.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by Stormin2u

The 2.2 shafty can be a better workhorse than anything I can think of. Let's face it the interest and rebirth of the Sportsman class proves that. People are loving it just look a some of the rigs being built. It's not going to be a specific rookie entry class but they will be well taken care of. The thing that's exciting is it's looking like a open shafty class and that has many of us more exciting than we've in years. The rookies aren't joining us thinking the should be winning on day one or leaving because they are intimidated, they are leaving us because we look like a big fat money pit. Retention of existing long term members is the bigger overall issue.

Agreed. Its platform is more familiar to newcomers than anything.

But still, the AX10 is a dated platform with old technology. I love Axial, I really do, but they need to step up their game here. If you buy one in the box and try to compete with it, you learn very quickly how much of it sucks and will have to be replaced. That is a horrible thing to realize once you've just dropped $400 on something. Had Losi's worm gear system worked better they would have murdered the AX10 in sales and drivers.

If they could develop a rig with the same drivetrain but better tires, better chassis, and better geometry I would almost guarantee they would see an upkick in sales and we would see an upkick in activity.

[toyotax10]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I guess you have not noticed the dwindling #s at national events. That is what this is really about, hence the reasoning. If the national level events fail where does that leave the clubs that are only sanctioned to get a nationals bid.

You don't have to understand it...or except it, but that is the reasoning. Like I said before maybe it was flawed.

The fact is growing the sport may take sacrifice from some. I am willing are you?

Sure the sport needs to grow but, this just pissed off a ton of drivers and vendors already with years in and helped shape this sport into what it is!
How is that helping to grow when your holding back design and set up!?

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

I fail to see how national attendance correlates with the amount of new drivers in the sport. Maybe you should poll your local clubs, see how many qualified for nationals, and then see why those who did decided not to show.

Anyone ever think that some people who would like to go are either unwilling or incapable of traveling? Its not exactly cheap to take time off of work, drive or fly across the country, and stay in a motel for a few nights. Especially when we are talking about playing with toy trucks. People have jobs and families and other responsibilities that have a much higher priority.

If we want more new drivers, we need to get the manufacturers involved and educate our otherwise ignorant LHS's. They are the ones most responsible for putting new rigs in new drivers' hands. We need to be sure that they are knowledgeable about their products and what it takes to be competitive. How many new drivers show up with RTR's with stick packs strapped to the top? How many of them look at our rigs and ask themselves what piece of crap did the hobby shop sell them? Most of the time when I go to a hobby shop and say the word "crawler", their eyes roll back in their head and they take on a sudden air of disinterest. That is where the greatest division of equality lies.

you are answereing your own questions...

National attendance and publicity of those fully attended events brings in new higher funding sponsors that in turn create new of the shelf products that brings fresh blood that back the upgrade vendors that support the forum you are arguing on.

[TexasSP]

I don't even comp because I prefer scale. If I did do it again, I would go shafty as I like it better for many of the same reasons duuuuuuuude posted. I am no great driver but the XR was almost too easy for most of what we have around Houston.

I voted keep bodiless.

First off, I find it irritating when something as casual as crawling is commandeered but a large sanctioning body who decides what is good for everyone everywhere. The same thing seems to be creeping into the scale seen however we locally pretty much run our own way and ignore it.

Rules should be basic and follow the K.I.S.S. principle. This keeps things nice and simple for all involved. Too many classes violates this too and further dilutes the field and participation. It just comes across as asinine to create so many rules that most local clubs won't follow anyway. The rules should be made in a way to be conforming to all local clubs needs and not just guys who run the nationals.

As for newbies I don't think anyone new expects to kick ass at their first comps anyway. I sure didn't. I just drove and had fun. I didn't know what worked and what didn't and broke a lot of crap along the way. It's a hobby after all, not my day job. I guess that's why the political nature of the way the rules come about is so aggravating to me. Too much PC and BS and not enough get out and drive your pants off.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by toyotax10

Sure the sport needs to grow but, this just pissed off a ton of drivers and vendors already with years in and helped shape this sport into what it is!
How is that helping to grow when your holding back design and set up!?

Again you guys asked for the theory...

Like I stated before it seems it is flawed. I think.we need to reassess the decision.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

National attendance and publicity of those fully attended events brings in new higher funding sponsors that in turn create new of the shelf products that brings fresh blood that back the upgrade vendors that support the forum you are arguing on.

That answers nothing. I wanted to know why national attendance was down, not how the RCC food chain operates...

[toyotax10]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

Because there is no dedicated shafted class at the national level.

So how will this rule change bring national attendance back up if there's no shafty class at national levels?????

[toyotax10]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I guess you have not noticed the dwindling #s at national events. That is what this is really about, hence the reasoning. If the national level events fail where does that leave the clubs that are only sanctioned to get a nationals bid.

You don't have to understand it...or except it, but that is the reasoning. Like I said before maybe it was flawed.

The fact is growing the sport may take sacrifice from some. I am willing are you?

?????

[EvilTwin v2]

National attendance is directly related to the economy. After hitting 4 qualifiers earlier in the year, I simply couldn't drop the cash to go to Vegas.

As for major sponsorship, the mess that occured at "worlds" in '09 put a serious blackjack on our hobby. We haven't had a major company company interested in putting up big money for an event since, and Proline hasn't supported crawling at all since.

We have alot to prove to the big companies. We need to earn that respect back.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I was a newb that attended a national event ounce...as were pretyy much all of you.

Have you been seeing new faces at these events...or the same old great mugs as always?

My 1st national even was floodapalooza,I had been comping for several months already,and was on my 3rd truck....was I a newb,yes.

but what chassis people drive was not what persuaded my going,or intimidated me when I got there.

what persuaded me to go,was my competitive nature,and the influence of local diehards already planning to attend......

I still say the reason your attendance is down,is the economy..
had I been in the same financial shape then,as I am today.I would not have made any large comps.....people have prioraties,newb or not.


Now,you may feel that running bodies only will grow the class,and there for national attendance....I still feel that logic is flawed,and is built on little to so basis,other than personal opinion.

and my logic is that bodiless has been a boost in the arm for the sportsman class and is therefore good for it.

what would you say has ignited the spark in sportsman "more" than bodiless
chassis?

why would you feel that banning a product that is so poulare with the diehards would somehow spark additional growth?

no matter your answer,many wil feel its wrong,I know you did what you feel is best,but I and many others feel you are mistaken.

I for one,wil not build my sportsman if I must run a body,I will sell the parts and build another moa.
Our sportsman interests has peaked right now,this desicioun has had nothing
but a negative affect,and that affects interest of diehards.....we are the majority of all members in our club...we spark the interest of news in our club.....not rules

[Ads]

Leave Sportsman as it is, at least for a couple of years. Constant changes and politics keeps people disinterested.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by toyotax10

So how will this rule change bring national attendance back up if there's no shafty class at national levels?????

Well technically... If there is no shafted class at the national level there are no rules for said class at the national level...

So their really is no rule change to said class. The rules are not implemented and the class does not exist yet.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

Well technically... If there is no shafted class at the national level there are no rules for said class at the national level...

So their really is no rule change to said class. The rules are not implemented and the class does not exist yet.

So does that mean that there is a new national level class in the works?

[Manning]

After thinking about this for a day or so, I'm going to vote for bodies on pro shafty.

Why?

1. Because I'd venture to guess that roughly 70% of all MOA's are bodiless, maybe more. I'd like to see different some different looking rigs out on the course. I'm not meaning BJ vs. T1E, either. Having a body on a rig would make it somewhat easier to tell what class it runs in. Before someone says, "look at the axles, dummy", I'm talking about seeing a rig from 40 feet away, and/or from the side.

2. One can put the exact same suspension geometry on a chassis regardless if there is a body or not. So I don't really see that any creativity is stifled by having to run a body. Keep in mind this is the opinion of a cynical engineer, not an artist. And if the owner is an artist, then the body becomes a canvas on which to unleash those creative skills.