The sky is falling!

[The Violator]

Its the new world order. They are going to tax us for co2 output and give the money to developing countries like China. So they can lend the USA back the money we just gave them, that we borrowed from them in the first place.

[dezfan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

what rights and freedoms?

Slave I wouldn't expect you to understand what it is I'm referring to when I speak of the reduction in rights and freedoms I have witnessed.

I'm an American. I grew up and was taught to believe in our Constitution, and the rights and freedoms it contains. Even so, I've heard my parents and grandparents talk of times that were freer and were the Governments invasive intrusions into their lives was not as it is today.

Hearing this and witnessing the continual assault on my Constitutional rights (while at the same time witnessing the rapid expansion of Government) over the last 20 years, I have come to understand that freedom means less government making decisions for me and my life that rightfully belong to me!

The measure of a proper government is found in Article I of the US Constitution, and the authorizations given to government there. The government is to have powers only because the people and the States give it powers that are specifically named in the Constitution.

Otherwise the government is not to do anything, except what it is told it can do by the Constitution.

This is what I am referring to when I speak of the impact that the Liberal/Environmental Left (through Government) have had on my rights and freedoms.

[Mr.Slave]

Originally Posted by dezfan

Slave I wouldn't expect you to understand what it is I'm referring to when I speak of the reduction in rights and freedoms I have witnessed.

I'm an American. I grew up and was taught to believe in our Constitution, and the rights and freedoms it contains. Even so, I've heard my parents and grandparents talk of times that were freer and were the Governments invasive intrusions into their lives was not as it is today.

Hearing this and witnessing the continual assault on my Constitutional rights (while at the same time witnessing the rapid expansion of Government) over the last 20 years, I have come to understand that freedom means less government making decisions for me and my life that rightfully belong to me!

The measure of a proper government is found in Article I of the US Constitution, and the authorizations given to government there. The government is to have powers only because the people and the States give it powers that are specifically named in the Constitution.

Otherwise the government is not to do anything, except what it is told it can do by the Constitution.

This is what I am referring to when I speak of the impact that the Liberal/Environmental Left (through Government) have had on my rights and freedoms.

Ah OK, I can see why you'd be angry at that.
I'm not even going to say I disagree with you either, but I do think environmental protection is somewhat important and I'm trying to leave as little negative impact on this planet by my existence as possible.

IMO the being environmentally conscious (which is what earthday is all about is it not?) is good for us all and it makes you look a bit of a douche constantly spewing your rhetoric against it when its actually all the governmental bullshit you dislike...

Happy easter.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by ctrwannabe

I donno, this one still sounds good to me....


“Man must stop pollution and conserve his resources, not merely to enhance existence but to save the race from intolerable deterioration and possible extinction.”
• New York Times editorial, the day after the first Earth Day

I agree with you Cole. It is rough to see several nations that are trying quite hard to help with this, while most others (generally developing countries) are increasing their pollution output exponentially.

[dezfan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

Ah OK, I can see why you'd be angry at that.
I'm not even going to say I disagree with you either, but I do think environmental protection is somewhat important and I'm trying to leave as little negative impact on this planet by my existence as possible.

IMO the being environmentally conscious (which is what earth-day is all about is it not?) is good for us all and it makes you look a bit of a douche constantly spewing your rhetoric against it when its actually all the governmental bullshit you dislike...

Happy easter.

I too agree that the protection of the environment is important. But I don't put the rabid protection of the environment ahead of my Constitutional rights.

I am an avid off road enthusiast and have no desire to see the environment destroyed. I enjoy nature, it's natural beauty and the time I get to spend in it. I was raised to pick up after myself, I always bring extra trash bags and pick up the trash we see, regardless if it is "my" trash or not. I've been involved in numerous trail clean ups which have resulted in tons of trash, old cars, broken bottles, etc... being removed and placed into a waste management facility all in the name of protecting the environment.

Even so, my right to access lands owned by the public have been trampled upon and closed to me in the name of "protecting" the environment. Were in the Constitution does the Government have the authority to close lands that belong to the people?

The "Environmentalist" say we are causing harm to the environment by simply being on these lands. In reality Nature can do and undo more harm in a single day than we could do in a lifetime of responcible off road use. They use the court system as a weapon and there in no compromise. They refuse to acknowledge the rights of others, and have no regard for our opinions as they have made the "Environment" some kind of strange religion.

Again, in the name of the environment, my rights and the rights of many others are trampled upon.

This is just a single example, I could go on and on.

[Mr.Slave]

Well machines don't have any rights so I'm perfectly fine with SOME (not all that's also silly) areas being protected from it.

[microgoat]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

thats my whole deal.

Like ive said before
Its like taking a shit in your living room for years and years and then arguing about whats causing all the flies in the house.. who cares? stop shitting in your living room!

That's not the issue. The issue is one guy who shits in his living room, the hippies get all outraged and get the government to pass a shit tax, and then push to ban shitting altogether.

You want to ride a bike to work, recycle condoms, eat local organic free range whatever, fine, do it. But don't try to legislate me into doing it, too.

[dezfan]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

Well machines don't have any rights so I'm perfectly fine with SOME (not all that's also silly) areas being protected from it.

Machine do not, but the people who own and use them do.

I to am perfectly happy w/ SOME areas being protected and preserved. Unfortunately the rabid environmentalist are not as reasonable and continue to push for more and more public lands to be closed!

Another example.

Just East of the Imperial Valley in California is the Glamis dunes complex.

The dune system consists of three areas.

The Northern most area is known as Mammoth Wash. This open area allows OHV use.

South of Mammoth Wash is the North Algodones Dunes Wilderness Area, this area is closed to all mechanized traffic, so access is by foot or on horseback only. Here you will find endless miles of quiet solitude.

The southernmost boundary of the wilderness is State Highway 78; just south of this highway the largest and most heavily used dunes are found. With some restrictions, these primary dunes may be traveled south toward the Mexican border.

The NADW area has been closed to OHV use for nearly 20 years. Off Road enthusiast support this area via taxes and a special OHV tag required by the state to operate said vehicle on public lands(a whole other can of worms).

Despite this massive expanse of protected desert paid for largely by OHV enthusiast, the "Environmentalist" have time and time again used the court system and the Endangered Species Act (Government) as a tool to trample on my rights and close these lands to public use.

Even after peer reviewed studies (again paid for w/ OHV enthusiast money) have shown that their claims of OHV use causing damage to "endangering" species as unsubstantiated. They simply re-file the same claim w/ a new species and use the court and the ESA in the same manner over and over. They are not really interested in protecting these species, they simply want their beliefs to be forced upon everyone else.

So maybe you can see why I am so avidly opposed to things like "Earth Day" and the "Environmental movement" as they refuse to see thing sensibly and continue to force their extreme form of eco-ideology down my throat

Again, there is no compromise w/ these people. They refuse to recognise the rights of others, they trample on the Constitution, and are all intensive purposes, religious zealots focused on forcing their twisted beliefs on everyone.

That is not freedom!

[Duuuuuuuude]

For every ecological extremist, there is someone who thinks the exact opposite, thinking that because we are the dominant species we have the god given right to use and abuse this planet without any regard to consequences.

Yes, this world is capable of plugging along with or without us, but that doesn't mean we should add to its workload. Someday we may push a little too hard and go past the point of recovery.

As I said earlier, all the scientific data we have is recent. A hole in the ozone layer? That's scary shit when you first hear about it, but for all we know ozone holes could have been opening and closing since the beginning of time. Is it a natural occurrence? Is it man made? Who knows. Either way, its still a good idea to not make it any worse. Err on the side of safety.

Environmental extremists go to extremes for the same reason everyone else does: they feel they have to. Some very bad things have been done in the name of the almighty Profit, and you can't lead a calm and quiet defense against corporate juggernauts and expect them to see reason. So, you aim for the sky and hope for something in the middle.

[demonoid369]

Originally Posted by microgoat

and then push to ban shitting altogether.
.

my colon already hurts from thinkin..................... Oh yaaaaa never it was just a fart

[GRIMGREG]

Overreaction is a human trait exploited by the media to cause ratings, and make the rest of us suffer.

[dezfan]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

For every ecological extremist, there is someone who thinks the exact opposite, thinking that because we are the dominant species we have the god given right to use and abuse this planet without any regard to consequences.

Ahh, but we do.

We are told in Genesis 1 that God said to man, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth”

But that's a different subject.

Yes, this world is capable of plugging along with or without us, but that doesn't mean we should add to its workload. Someday we may push a little too hard and go past the point of recovery.

I think that it is very arrogant of us to think that we (mankind) are as all powerful as we think we are. Nature can be and is much more "destructive" than we can ever imagine. Unfortunately I feel that we lack the ability or perspective to put that "destruction" into the measure of time that nature operates under.

A 1000 years is an eternity in our perspective, while in Nature, it's not even a blink of an eye.

As I said earlier, all the scientific data we have is recent. Err on the side of safety.

I agree to a certain extent, but unfortunately at the first sign of any kind of "Abnormality" in the climate, the Left always swings for the fence and the economic impact and consequences be damned.

After all the bad press over the use of aerosols, freon, etc... The science 20+ years later still offers no substantiated proof that those were the root cause of the ozone hole. As you stated, the data is to new to be used in such a all encompassing swath.

But it was and look at the way it devastated industries, increased cost, increased inconvenience, decreased efficiency, and for what?

Environmental extremists go to extremes for the same reason everyone else does: they feel they have to. Some very bad things have been done in the name of the almighty Profit, and you can't lead a calm and quiet defense against corporate juggernauts and expect them to see reason. So, you aim for the sky and hope for something in the middle.

On the same hand, some very bad things have been done in the name of protecting the environment which had no factual or scientific grounds to substantiate them. As you said, you can't lead a calm and quiet defense against those trampling on your rights and freedoms when they don't accept or acknowledge the fact that others even have rights.

Ask the people in Central California about putting questionable environmental science into effect ahead of the Constitutional rights of the people who live there and see what kind of reaction you get.

[ColquittCustom405]

Dezfan for Mayor.......


Preach brotha,PREACH!.....I smell yah dirty!


I have nothing to add, you're spittin some real knowledge homie.....

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by dezfan

Ahh, but we do.

We are told in Genesis 1 that God said to man, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth”

But that's a different subject..

Subduing the earth and holding dominion over its animals does not mean rape the planet and wage wholesale destruction on its inhabitants. Do you really think God would give us the go-ahead to do as we please with his perfect creation?

And thats as far as I'll go with that, because as you say, it is a different subject.

Originally Posted by dezfan

I think that it is very arrogant of us to think that we (mankind) are as all powerful as we think we are.

I completely agree. Self importance has muddled many a mind.

Originally Posted by dezfan

I agree to a certain extent, but unfortunately at the first sign of any kind of "Abnormality" in the climate, the Left always swings for the fence and the economic impact and consequences be damned.

After all the bad press over the use of aerosols, freon, etc... The science 20+ years later still offers no substantiated proof that those were the root cause of the ozone hole. As you stated, the data is to new to be used in such a all encompassing swath.

But it was and look at the way it devastated industries, increased cost, increased inconvenience, decreased efficiency, and for what? .

Economic consiquences are nothing compared to what they felt was a very real and very near catastrophic future for mankind. If you were told tomorrow that you possibly had some swift moving, potentially fatal disease that required a change in lifestyle and expensive treatment, would you not be prepared to make whatever sacrifices were nececary to avoid the tragic and seemingly inevitable end? Of course you would most likely seek a second opinion on the matter, but in terms of our ecological future, we have nothing else to refer to.

And so again it comes down to self importance. Do you put yourself and your ideals first, at the cost of the health of the planet and the wellbeing of its inhabitants?

[ThinkTank]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

Abut I do think environmental protection is somewhat important and I'm trying to leave as little negative impact on this planet by my existence as possible.

I read an article on how endangered species habitats were being destroyed to make way for renewable energy.
Of course the same animal activists were mum on the issue.

Here in the U.S, "eco-whatever" is a joke run by quacks. Similar to the rest of the nation/government.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by dezfan

Ahh, but we do.


I think that it is very arrogant of us to think that we (mankind) are as all powerful as we think we are.

Those two statements contradict one another....

[salmonshark]

Originally Posted by ThinkTank

I read an article on how endangered species habitats were being destroyed to make way for renewable energy.
Of course the same animal activists were mum on the issue.

Here in the U.S, "eco-whatever" is a joke run by quacks. Similar to the rest of the nation/government.

Actually, I can't find the article right now, but there is a huge wind farm in Montana where the animal activists are protesting it to close completely because of the migratory birds it kills each season. If I remember correctly, the company running the wind farm, shuts it down during the migratory seasons for these birds, but the activists want it shut down completely.

SS

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by salmonshark

Actually, I can't find the article right now, but there is a huge wind farm in Montana where the animal activists are protesting it to close completely because of the migratory birds it kills each season. If I remember correctly, the company running the wind farm, shuts it down during the migratory seasons for these birds, but the activists want it shut down completely.

SS

Now thats pushing it.

[microgoat]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

And so again it comes down to self importance. Do you put yourself and your ideals first, at the cost of the health of the planet and the wellbeing of its inhabitants?

Of course. Everybody does.

Anyone who says oh no, not me, I'm an Activist! And I'm doing it for the children/environment/planet/future/your health/your soul/whatever is a damn liar. They're pushing their agenda because that's how they get off.

[TEAM DEBEAD]

It's not right when public lands are shut down because environmentalists get the courts to declare a plant to be an endangered specie before proper tests have been conducted to back that claim. Lands remain closed while tests are conducted by the environmentalists, off-road enthusiasts, and independent scientists. Although all three test conclude with the same outcome, that the plant is mostly affected by the average rain fall in the area and that OHV use affects only .01% of the population of this plant, lands still remain closed while it's fought over in the court system. Environmentalists only have to cry wolf to get what they want, but off-road enthusiasts have to move mountains to put things right. Pretty soon the dunes in Glamis will be closed and they'll call it Milkvetch Protected area. I hate that plant for what it represents to the environmentalists, but I still don't try to run it over on my quad.


Dezfan for PRESIDENT!!