Re: Fwck gun control
 

Looks to me to be the #2 version !!!

Re: Fwck gun control
 

It the looks of the assault rifle that scares people. :ror:

Re: Fwck gun control
 

IMO certain constitutional rights should be denied to you if you choose to act irresponsibly or are unable to be responsible in their regard. It does not even have to be a criminal act.

Anyone with a history of violence, serious drug abuse, or serious emotional instability does not have the capacity to responsibly own a weapon. I would even stretch that out to the households where those people reside.

Re: Fwck gun control
 

That is an extremely general/broad statement to make. Hell, I would put lot of church-goers that I know in the "serious emotional instability" catagory.

The problem lies in whos/whats to determine that. Obviously things like criminal convictions would be more defined.

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i will stand by this whole-heartedly. i've stated earlier in this thread my mental health matters, and i know a lot of people that are as or more unstable than me with a ton of guns and other weaponry.

i've been hospitalized twice for suicidal tendencies, once was with a loaded shotgun sitting on my table. should it be right that i can go out and buy more guns? i'm not sure, and if i did, i would store the gun at a friend's house where it is secure and out of impulsive reach.

and as far as the therapy vs. medication route:

medications should be used in supplement to therapy, not as a replacement. i'm on meds, i still see a couple different therapists on a regular basis. the pill does not fix the underlying issue, it corrects a chemical imbalance. i still have days that i'm so anxious that leaving the house is down right hard. i still have manic days, and depressed days. going to therapy and grinding stuff out is something that needs to happen for me, or i just go into a feedback loop on the stuff i'm thinking about, that the meds don't touch.

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This is why so many kids are being diagnosed with ADHD when they're just being kids. They've got a mental illness, no guns for you!

Look for much broader definitions of mental illness in the coming years. Speeding ticket? That's anti-social tendencies and poor impulse control. No gun for you either, Mr. Andretti.

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According to Duuudes statement, and probably others views, no you should not be allowed a firearm, given what youve stated about your background.

Problem is, there are a lot of people who havent been diagnosed and dont have a background, that would probably meet the same criteria.


The people who would actually step up and admit/say, "I dont need to have a firearm around" are few and far.

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I do agree with you.

Problem is for us non Americans is we are not subjected to the same media as many as these guys on here.

A good mate of mine is an ex army ranger, i'm no ***** but there is no way i'd stand and punch ot out with this guy.
Funny thing is, when he came to stay at my place in England the guy was walking around absolutely shitting himself cause he wasn't carrying a firearm.

Such a tough guy yet by far one of the most insecure i've met.
We sat and talked about one night over a few beers, as was usual in my home town of Nottingham then there were a few fights in the bar.
We both agreed that if most of the inhabitants of the bar were carrying firearms some would not have made it home that night.

I've been to stay with him a few times since and he has gradually come around to being less insecure.
He now keeps ALL his firearms in a safe "thumbsup"

I think it's easy for us non Americans to judge all this insecurity often on guys that on the outside give a "tough guy" image, but when it's fear is streamed out constantly through local media it's pretty much the only reaction your going to get.

I'm on a few bushcraft/survival forums and have a guy i've been talking with for a few years in Texas.
This guy is absolutely certain the world is going to end, he has invested thousands and thousands of dollars of prep stuff and has more guns and ammunition than most UK police stations.
Funny thing is though he's around 400lbs, does absolutely no exercise, is diabetic and has extremely bad asthma.

Again i've talked to him and offered him my opinions, but he just can't get in his head what the real threat is and how small a chance his perceived threat is.

It would be interesting to read how many ops on here have needed to shoot or draw their weapon in civilian life.
My guess is less than 1%

So if less than 1% have NEEDED a gun for personal safety it does kinda make you think how exaggerated is the real threat and who exactly gains from this exaggeration?
If it was me i'd be pretty pissed that i'd fallen for such a commercial sucker punch.

Do i think guns should be banned = nope
I love shooting and love hunting

Do i think that the US needs a state to state consistent control over weapon buying = yep

Do i think that each gin license should involve a background check AND a cop going to the home to check they have a gun safe and sufficient security = yep

End of the day it might or it might not prevent a tragedy like this happening again BUT if keeping my gns locked in a safe, reduces the chance of 6 and 7 year old kids being shot on mass in the future by even 0.01% personally that's a compromise i'd be willing to take.

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aye, but the fact is that if i want a new shotgun for doing some trap shooting, i can go get one. i may be one of the few that will step up and say that i should be under far harsher critique than the general populous, i have a history, and i still was able to have a new shotgun under my arm the same day when i was buying a varmint gun (again, i have no clue where it is, but that's beside the point).

and the staggering amount of un-diagnosed people scares the fawk out of me. both hospital trips i met someone that was completely normal until that one day. now this was according to them (how much can you trust it, i dunno) but living the average suburban life, good job, wife, kids, etc. and the one day...

a lot of the adhd is just kids being kids imo, i know when i was a kid attention was hard to spare. but i dealt with some heavy depression for a long time without letting anyone know, and that one day....

sadly, there is no way to screen everyone that buys a firearm to suss out the people with hidden mental issues, and i don't know if there ever will be a day its possible. if i get popped on a background check and get rejected on another firearms purchase, i'll frankly be happy that there is a system out there that is working.

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Agreed, so logically you'd say that if that was the case as a society we would limit the amount of damage a person could do if they flipped.

A semi automatic assault rifle = a LOT of damage + it's not much good for hunting

A pump action shotgun = a LOT of damage, good for hunting though

A double barrelled shotgun = a LOT of damage but needs a LOT of reloading so overall less damage + it's still great for hunting, if 2 barrels doesn't put down what your hunting then your a crap shot :lmao:


We could ban guns, knives, cars, alcohol etc tomorrow but STILL as a species we would find ways to kill and maim each other.

If you absolutely want to kill someone you WILL find a way no matter what's legal or not.

My point is, if semi automatic multi bullet weapons are around in the general public this sort of tragedy is going to happen again and again and again.
If this person hadn't had access to semi automatic big mag weapons then the more kids would have been home to their parents that night.

If the kid had say a double barrelled shotgun then i'm sure there would have still been deaths, i don't think any reasonable person would argue that there would have been a LOT less.

And that's the way i see it.
People like that have existed since humans first walked the earth and they'll be here till the day we are extinct.
We as a society NEED to make compromises to limit the amount of damage these people will do.
If that means a small inconvenience of a cop coming round to check you have sufficient security i'm fine with that.
If that means keeping all guns locked when not in use, again small price to pay.

Anyone that doesn't agree with such minor controls has absolutely no hold on reality and the real suffering these and many many many others are going to go through because of their small minded stubbornness.

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what consitutes violence.

I was in alot of fights as a youth....mostly cuz of the area I resided.
Once I moved to teh country, no more trouble.

would those fights be worthy of removing my rights?


when you threaten removing ones rights cuz of mental health.
you are not promoting an invoroment that pursuades a person to seek help.

Also, mental health can be interpreted.....2-3-4 different doctors could have various opinions.....patients are misdiagnoosed alot for this reason.
medicine is a practice......alwasy impproving ( like science ) but still
alot of edjucated "guesses" involved.

the world willl never be perfect
we cant provent the violent tendencies of some
Can be gun, knife, arson, robery, car jacking, ect,ect, ect.
best we can do is be prepared, and hope to react properly under
the pressure of such events.
and not let the events that unfold in the world around us, change who we are and what we stand for/believe in.

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I dont even let the county appraiser on my land......
nobody enters my home unless I envite them.

when I have a party, I generally have aloot of people over...lots of kids.
all guns get put up prior....

I'll decide what is best for my household....not the gov.

I think the main differannce between us americans ( some anyway ) and folks from other countries......
I dont think you understand how deep the distrust of the goverment is....
law is simply another arm of the goverment.

We americans have laws speciifiic to prevent officers of the law from enering our home.
we have rights that are written, to preserve them....to protect us....from the
goveremnt and its enevitable desire to controle us more and more

the 2nd amendment isnt so preserve our right to hunt
the 1st amendment isnt preserve pir right to bas mouth religion.

the 1st is present so we can speak out openly against the goverment
the 2nd is there so we have a fighting chance against the goverment we they come to shut us up.

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the amount of damage if the person flipped argument may seem to be a logical step, but is actually far from it. what i'm saying in my situation (keep this in mind, these are my view on my experiences) is that any firearm purchase approved for me could very well end up in my own death, at my own hands.


humans have violent tendencies, some yell, some go wail on a beater truck, some people shoot. no amount of control will take away ingrained emotional responses.

no argument, i had a wooden pencil at each hospital, and i know how to take a person down. anything and everything is a weapon in the right (or wrong) hands.

this is all down to determination of the subject when it comes to the action they commit. i've pulled triples with an over-under shooting in the back yard, and i am pretty handy with a bolt action. to say that one thing would be less with less shots holds water, but still, there is damage done no matter what.

treat the symptoms of the situation (underlying mental health issues in my case) instead of target the tool used. when i'm putting in a screw, and the drill slips and hits my hand, the drill is not at fault. usually when this happens i'm either pushing too hard on the drill, or i'm going at the wrong angle. do i usually drop or throw the drill, sure, buts it is not at fault.

Re: Fwck gun control
 

Problem is that although you may be a responsible person there are millions of irresponsible people out there.
Many of those parents.

In an ideal world NOTHING would be illegal because us as a species would think through our actions and not do stupid things like take heroin, get drink enough to fall over asleep in the gutter, get into fights with blokes twice our size, drive drunk, speed etc etc etc

In reality though we ALL are irresponsible at times and some folks more irresponsible than responsible most the time.

If we can keep firearms from these people and their kids then having guns locked away in a safe when they're at home isn't much of a compromise is it.

And that's the thing here, compromise.

If things stay exactly the same then we'll all be reading about tragedy's like this the rest of our lives.

If on the other hand folks compromise very very slightly (no ones saying you can't have guns here) and for the sake of argument say:
Assault rifle type guns become illegal until you acquire a special license.
Homes are vetted by the police for security before ANY firearm license is issued
Guns are secured in a gun safe when at home and not being worked on

I don't see how any reasonable responsible person would not agree to those rules even if it only reduce the chance of something like this occurring by 0.1%.

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if a person ( kid or adullt ) wants to get thier hands on a gun....like the ones we are taling about.....doing hanus crimes.....
they will

there is nothing we can do that will prevent it.
they will plan, and scheme, untill they know where you keep the key, or untill
they get enough cash to buy one from a gangbanger.

did you watch the video dkf posted....in its entirety?
if not, watch it...listen to every word she has to say.....
take notice when she speaks of the reason for the 2nd amendment....high capacity clips...ect.

lots of underatnding and trueth in her words.

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I put it here, easy to find.....
watch it, and if you disagree, fine
but ackowledge many of us do agree....and we are within our right to do so.

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I said "serious" issues, like depression, mania, schizophrenia, and other ailments that distort your perception of reality.

Yep, he should not be allowed to handle a firearm under normal circumstances. The exception would be life/death circumstances.

Maybe there should be psych evaluations for current and/or prospective gun owners. I would add to that mandatory weapons training.

The lack of responsibility is way more disturbing than the weapons available to the general public.

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If your kid gets a hold of a gun and does something bad, then you are a shitty parent. It is bullshit to say that there is nothing that can be done about it. If that happens then you have failed as a parent.

If someone else gets a hold of one of your weapons and does something bad, you are a shitty, irresponsible weapons owner.

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Problem is though mental health problems are going to be with us until the day we become extinct, there is absolutely nothing you can do about that.

It's also impossible to predict when mental health problems are going to show.

So i can't see how we as a society can do anything to prevent or predict mental health problems.

The other thing to consider is, it's not like every person going through mental health problems is a danger to themselves or others.
So even if the absolute impossible happened and we were able to predict it, we couldn't possible predict the level or actions beforehand.


As i say if every single gun in the world disappeared tomorrow we as a race would still find ways to kill and hurt each other.
So to me the logical thing to do would be to restrict weapons of mass murder only to people that have properly vetted and then have a enforceable law where they will also be required to have these weapons locked away when not in use.


For me this is the difference between
BBC News - China school knife attack in Henan injures 22 children

And
BBC News - Newtown shootings: The victims

Both tragedy's but 20 injured instead of 26 dead would be enough for me to come to some sort of compromise with myself.

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if some one breaks into your garage, and steals your car, and drives away and kills somneone//// your a poor car owner.

if your kid sneals off in your car in the middle of the night..
then your a piss poor parent....
you should have locked uop your keys.

Oh....and the knifes

if my son needs access and doesnt have it...I'm a poor parent
for not allowing my son the means to protect himself

and your a piss poor parent if you havent edjucated your kids on safe firearms handle and use.
( even if you dont own any ) and trust them/allow then access to a means of protection other than a phone.
Now if you dont trust them.....your the onne who has screwed up. fix it.
If you dont trust thier friends....why are they in the home.

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Travel to England or Europe and try to buy a semi automatic assault rifle, then come back and tell me that again.

If tight control is put on guns then it eventually becomes EXTREMELY difficult for criminals never mind shy kids to buy guns.

Even then they're often converted single shot guns.


I've watched it many times, as it's always the "go to" when i talk about US gun laws with mates.

It's madness to think that any civilian on the street has the capacity to shoot someone, or has the foresight to check for backstops, civilians behind the shooter schools kids etc.

I've seen with my own eyes hard as nails trained soldiers unable to return fire.
Pointing a gun at someone with the intention of killing them is an extremely difficult thing.

Doing so while also evaluating risks and checking where your shots might go is monumentally difficult.

If she'd have had her gun then i'd put money on it that all that would have been is more ammunition and a extra gun for George Hennard.

Besides having firearms close at hand did absolutely NOTHING for the victims of the Fort Hood massacre did it.

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that's the terrible thing about blanket labeling a weapon as the cause of the crime. mental illness is a bitch, and even more of a bitch to unravel and diagnose properly. took test after test to get myself nailed down, and took a couple months for me to accept that guns are a no-go for me. policing yourself, your family, and your friends are the biggest factors in gun control, and they are so often ignored in all the high level debates that go into gun control acts.

prevention of mental health problems is a pretty far off concept. brain scans, personality tests, etc all help in that, but its a damn long project to complete. you're not going to prevent the issue, there is only symptom recognition and treatment.

there is no foreseeable solution to treating people with mental health issues completely. to treat one person completely is very difficult, treating a population is near impossible. the biggest part is your friends and family, mine would pretty much drag me out of the house when i went into depressed or full on hermit mode, my family (my mother in particular, who i still live with, mock that if you want, but she's pulled many irons out of many mental fires for me) would start asking about it, and when they got really worried, the police where called in. was i happy about it then, no. hell no. did it help me recognize that i have problems, yes, and looking back it was for the better.

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they didint have guns on the base:roll: the shooter knew that on the way in the buiding.
regulare troops on fort hood dont carry. They was like sitting ducks.

and it doesnt6 take a geniouse to shoot a intruder/attacker
it happens all the time here is the good old USofA

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The difference is my car, while it is certainly capable of being used in such a manner, is not designed and built with the sole purpose of killing.

Having it in the garage and locked up is a perfectly reasonable and responsible way to secure it.

Leaving it in the street with the keys in it is wholly irresponsible, just as leaving a gun hanging on the wall or laying on the table is. That is not at all a reasonable way to secure something deadly.

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I've not read anyone insinuating the gun was the cause of the crime.

I'm saying that if semi automatic weapons were not in the house and other guns were locked in a gun safe there is a good chance more kids would have got to go home that night.

There's a good chance there still would have been a tragedy, but as shit days go 2 dead kids instead or 20 is the better option.

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Question

Would you support a law to have all guns locked in a safe when not in use at home if it was likely to reduce this kind of thing happening again by even 1%?

Whats so bad about not having semi automatic assault rifles at home?
What's so bad about having guns and ammunition locked up in a gun safe?

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Or he could of backed a pickup full of a home made fertilizer bomb up to the school and leveled everything within a a 100'+ radius. (then we can use Dudes example and blame the owner of the stolen truck he used and the nursery he stole the fertilizer from, LOL)

Or he could have chained the door and set the building on fire. (then we can blame the company that made the chain and the matches)

And as for ARs not being good for hunting. LOL you are clueless. Stay in Europe please."thumbsup"

Who is "small minded" now.

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I was not aware that the mall had a no firearm sign posted, but you don't need to inform me of the laws associated with carrying a concealed weapon. I have my permit, and am aware of the laws, and have proper training, and most importantly I practice practice practice!!

Anyway, the point of my story boils down to....more properly educated and practiced citizens carrying firearms equals fewer people successfully mowing down 20+ people before being stopped.

As a CCW holder, I refuse to visit places of business with a No Firearms sign on the door.
If I can't protect myself and my family in your place of business, then you have no products or service that I can't find elsewhere.

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I say again.

Travel to Europe and try to buy a semi automatic assault rifle on the black market.

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i see from time to time semi automatics blanketed under this, particularly the "black rifle" argument against assault style weapons. talking in broader terms here, the "black rifle" anti's will immediately latch onto the fact it was an assault style weapon used in the attack if one was used.

while i personally don't see the point in owning an assault style weapon myself, but i recognize that some people really like building, shooting, and generally tinkering with them. to each their own there.

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Bill clintons justice department numbers ( under janet reno )
guns are used to protect life and property 6,800 times a day

You must speak and act on what you know and understand..
I have been around guns all my life, my son has had guns around him all
his life. That will not change, especially by the words or opinions of another.

If my son was autistic, or challenged likewise....ouors would be a different house ( we have an autistic in our family )
when she comes over.....EVERY THING can be dangerouse..
she requires constant attention....and even a fork/pen could be bad.

But in my house, guns are a daily accourance. we shoot targets, hunt deer on our land.

we have the need for close access to weapons for protection of our stock
we have no law enforcment in out town, county law is always at least 10 min away, and tell us thenmself....dog on property....shot it.

plus guns are fun....my son can take his shotgun, or rifle or bow out back just about any time he wants ( so long as he isnt grounded )

you rais yourr the way you see fit, I likewise will raise mine the way I see fit.

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I feel the same way. I personally have no need or desire to own that style of weapon, but they are as cool as hell.

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Come on.
We are having a reasonable chat here between what i thought were reasonable adults.

Even the most staunch gun supporter can see that if guns are locked away many of these tragedy's would be prevented in the future.

No matter what CSI you've been watching says making a fert bomb is extremely difficult as is getting hold of the supplies.

If my kids in a school thats about to be attacked by this kid i'd happily take my chances with fire as opposed to a semi automatic assault rifle, as i'm sure any sane person would.

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Hell Yea "thumbsup"

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NO

I would not support any ban....of any weaon, caliber or capacity clip

I would support siffer background checks and
longer wiat times...as nether of these should bother a honest person IMO.

IMO its never proper to limit the rights of the honest, to prevent crime.

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I have absolutely no problem with your kid having access to and shooting guns so long as he has been trained and is well aware of what they are capable of, which it sounds like he is. I have a problem with the chance of someone who isn't trained or capable having that same access.

Say someone comes into your house when you aren't there, takes those guns you've got laying around, and robs/kills someone you know, or maybe they even hang around and wait for you to come home.

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I was sshooting grade on a job in denton tx they day the bomb went of in OK. I felt the ground shake under my feet.
it was about an hr later when we herd the news, that we realized what we felt that day......
its a real threat, its not hard, and if one means for a killer is to difficult to aquire, they will find another source for thier distruction.

Its a vilide remark, dont diregard.

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Mate I never mentioned anything about banning anything.

My question was about gun being locked in gun safes when at home.


Quick question though, do you support legalising ALL weapons, AAA, fully automatic, grenade launchers etc?

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I do NOT live in Europe, so I dont care what their laws are, and I dont plan on EVER even visiting :flipoff: