Scale vs comp suspension

[Turtlejon]

Shocks at an angle are typically at greater leverage, which has 2 effects. It gives a longer travel for the travel of the shock, and it decreases the force on the shock and also they are more progressive then when they are closer to vertical. The leverage increases as the angle gets steeper, so it starts off soft and gets firmer as it goes. The spring action already does that, as well.
When I set up my SCX and my sucker punch with identical shocks, I expected them to feel similar, but it felt fairly different. The SP had a bit more travel, felt a bit softer at full extension, and was stiffer as it got closer to full compression.
I've heard people completely disagree with this concept, but in an experiment where this variable was isolated these results are very easy to reproduce.

[msrace]

I'm specifically talking about the fact the shocks are mounted with the pivots going front to back instead of side to side. It prevents you from running the shocks at a proper angle, not to mention the fact they are so close together on the axle simply cause it's easier to mass produce. I'm even more disappointed the aftermarket guys haven't fixed this either.


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[msrace]

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[84yoda]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

You know you can buy springs with different rates, right?

No I didn't, I live under a rock.

Even with the softest spring, comp crawlers will still lay the shocks back to make the suspension work easier.

[TLR_junkie]

Originally Posted by msrace

I'm specifically talking about the fact the shocks are mounted with the pivots going front to back instead of side to side. It prevents you from running the shocks at a proper angle, not to mention the fact they are so close together on the axle simply cause it's easier to mass produce. I'm even more disappointed the aftermarket guys haven't fixed this either.


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You are referring to the bottom pivots, correct?

[msrace]

Both ends, in the fullsize world the shocks pivot side to side so they don't bind through the range of travel. I am running 5" prolines and if you take the springs off, you can move the axle through its entire range of travel with out bind or resistance.

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[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by 84yoda

No I didn't, I live under a rock.

Even with the softest spring, comp crawlers will still lay the shocks back to make the suspension work easier.

Define "easier".

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by Turtlejon

When I set up my SCX and my sucker punch with identical shocks, I expected them to feel similar, but it felt fairly different. The SP had a bit more travel, felt a bit softer at full extension, and was stiffer as it got closer to full compression.
I've heard people completely disagree with this concept, but in an experiment where this variable was isolated these results are very easy to reproduce.

Did you account for the increase in pressure inside the shock as it was compressing?

[Turtlejon]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Did you account for the increase in pressure inside the shock as it was compressing?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean..?

I set up a set of 4 shocks as similarly as I could as far as oil (weight and fill), pistons, springs, etc. I used my buddies shock balancer jig to make sure they were all the same. I put 2 shocks on the rear end of each truck and felt all of the similarities and differences. I put all 4 shocks on each truck and drove around. My buddy was there and we compared opinions.

I would hardly call this "scientific method" but it made some of the differences between these 2 styles of suspension more evident to me.

The reason behind this was my idea of putting a scale body on top of a comp rig to get optimal performance. I work weekends and so I can't comp, so the "rules" didn't apply to this rig, I was just trying it out for fun. In the end, the bumpers, wheel wells, CG of body and cage, etc. got in the way enough to make it less fun (for me) than just leaving it as a comp style rig.

[Dostradamas]

Originally Posted by Turtlejon

I'm not sure exactly what you mean..?

exactly

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by Turtlejon

I'm not sure exactly what you mean..?

I set up a set of 4 shocks as similarly as I could as far as oil (weight and fill), pistons, springs, etc. I used my buddies shock balancer jig to make sure they were all the same. I put 2 shocks on the rear end of each truck and felt all of the similarities and differences. I put all 4 shocks on each truck and drove around. My buddy was there and we compared opinions.

I would hardly call this "scientific method" but it made some of the differences between these 2 styles of suspension more evident to me.

The more acute the shock angle is in relation to the arc that the axle moves through as it cycles up and down, the softer it behaves because it has less leverage. The angle becomes more and more acute as the suspension progresses towards full bump, so naturally the shock/spring will have less force upon it's movement.



That is not opinion, that is physics.

[Turtlejon]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

The more acute the shock angle is in relation to the arc that the axle moves through as it cycles up and down, the softer it behaves because it has less leverage. The angle becomes more and more acute as the suspension progresses towards full bump, so naturally the shock/spring will have less force upon it's movement.



That is not opinion, that is physics.

Ah, exactly. We are both saying the same thing. Maybe I didn't phrase it as such.

[War Pig]

Here is a perfect example of a "performance scaler". Shocks are laid back a bit, yet I can barely put the front tire on a 4" block without picking another tire up off the ground. It's not about how much articulation, it's about the quality of articulation and how the suspension is set up. I also mounted the shocks above the axles and as close to the tires as possible. Helps with stability.

[C*H*U*D]

Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH

The interesting thing about scalers is there seems to be a bias towards looking the part vs performing.

Do you mean performing scale or performing like a comp truck?

I understand looking the part but I also like them to perform in a scale fashion as well. I'm not a fan of multiple scale items, but I admit that I did it too for the points.

I want my Toyota scaler to perform well, but not to the extent of it being unrealistic. Performing like a comp truck would just ruin the driving experience in my opinion.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Sometimes the struggle is fun.

The added bonus is that less performance makes you pay more attention to what you're doing.

[Turtlejon]

All the fun is in the struggle!!!
And inversely, tougher challenges require better performance! From both truck and driver!
There's no substitute for skill!

[msrace]

I would guess that by performance scaler, he is referring to a well build and performing full size rig, not an rc comp rig. That is my goal as well. I am trying to build my wraitheart giving it the best ability possible, but as if I could scale it up and drive it that way. My entire rig has evolved completely around what is done on real full size comp rigs.

[msrace]

Originally Posted by Turtlejon

All the fun is in the struggle!!!
And inversely, tougher challenges require better performance! From both truck and driver!
There's no substitute for skill!

This is such a big statement. In the full size world, there are guys that overbuild there rigs only to run moderate trails with ease and think they are some kind of hero, while others continue to improve their rigs to try and conquer the impossible. Many people wouldn't even consider what many of my club does as even possible.

[msrace]

Originally Posted by C*H*U*D

I understand looking the part but I also like them to perform in a scale fashion as well. I'm not a fan of multiple scale items, but I admit that I did it too for the points.

I wonder if I would get scale points for having a high lift and a spare back in the truck since that's where my real ones are when we are out crawling?

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by msrace

I wonder if I would get scale points for having a high lift and a spare back in the truck since that's where my real ones are when we are out crawling?

At a SORRCA event you would get scale points for both those items.