Do you believe in God,Heaven or Hell?

[DavidH]

History tells us (in the very article you linked to, as a matter of fact) that Jeffrey Dahmer was not a Christian when he murdered people. At the end of his life he seems to have repented and turned to Christ, but without an opportunity to see any fruit, whether good or bad, from his life following this supposed conversion, it's tough to tell whether or not he was being authentic.

As a side note, in a video interview with Dr. James Dobson, Dahmer sites addiction to pornography as the driving force behind his 17 murders and canabalism.

Whether he was being authentic or not is irrelevant to my question.

Does violating a commandment preclude one from entering 'heaven'? Yes or no?

 

[StomperCrawler]

Whether he was being authentic or not is irrelevant to my question.

Does violating a commandment preclude one from entering 'heaven'? Yes or no?

No. We all violate God's laws.

 

[DavidH]

That's like asking, "Now that you know the earth is round, and rotates the sun, could you choose to believe that it's flat, and the center of the universe?" and then flip-flop back a few days later. Sure I could, but what would it prove, other than extreme wishy-washyness?

It would prove to yourself that you have this 'free will' that you espouse. Or that you don't. And if you don't, you'll know the bible is wrong on this matter.

Again: Right now, choose to believe that gods are only characters in books, and then later this week, choose to believe what you previously believed.

 

[Rotare]

So you admit that you don't know but are unwilling to accept the existence and authority of a supreme being that He has written down for you?

Neither you or I can say with any fact or certainty how the universe was created, or the reason for our existence. But just because we don't know or truly understand..... doesn't mean we just shrug our shoulders and assume then it must be the work of a god!

There's no tangible evidence that we were created by a god. There is no evidence to a suggest any type of god exists. This discussion is a perfect demonstration of that. There are thousands of different religions, that provide thousands of different hypothesis of how the world was created, and the reason for our existence. You believe just one of those stories, but then can't understand why pragmatic and rational people don't buy it....

 

[DavidH]

So you admit that you don't know but are unwilling to accept the existence and authority of a supreme being that He has written down for you?

If this "supreme being" can muster the effort to open their own account here and join this thread, I'll read what gets posted.

And no, I won't accept a scientific theory that has no basis in reality

How do you know that? Are you an astrophysicist?

because it does not address the more pertinent core issue of where it all came from. Scientists tell us that toast came out of the toaster, without explaining where the bread, toaster, or electricity came from, who made them, or even who pressed the "toast" button!

Do you hold other theories to this standard? Germ theory? Atomic theory? Gravitational theory? Do you accept semiconductor theory?

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

If this "supreme being" can muster the effort to open their own account here and join this thread, I'll read what gets posted.

GOD has an account, but he hasn't posted in nearly 6 years. Throwing hurricanes at queers must be keeping him busy...

 

[DavidH]

No. We all violate God's laws.

So, basically, anything goes as long as you believe. So if not from your religion, where do you get your morals?

 

[DavidH]

GOD has an account, but he hasn't posted in nearly 6 years. Throwing hurricanes at queers must be keeping him busy...

I lol'd. "thumbsup"

 

[StomperCrawler]

So, basically, anything goes as long as you believe. So if not from your religion, where do you get your morals?

Incorrect. I already answered that question with my response from James. Why do you and others ask for things to be repeated? You're asking me which is annoying enough, but when you ask God to do it, it's just plain disrespectful and I highly doubt it would make any difference:

If this "supreme being" can muster the effort to open their own account here and join this thread, I'll read what gets posted.

He already wrote it all down for you in the Bible. If you choose not to read it or believe it then that's your loss.

 

[spaceman5280]

The Bible is a strange combination of various writings clearly assembled and perpetuated with the purpose of controlling the population through fear.

One can forgive Bronze Age humans for believing in this mythology, but there’s no rational reason to think that the Bible is anything other than what was stated above. We have access to almost the entirety of human knowledge in our pockets so there is no excuse for believing anything in the Bible is profound is divinely inspired.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DavidH]

"The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history."

- Robert Heinlein, "Notebooks of Lazarus Long," from Time Enough for Love (1973).

 

[DavidH]

Incorrect. I already answered that question with my response from James.

Incorrect how? If violating a commandment doesn't preclude one from entering 'heaven', what's to hold you back?

Why do you and others ask for things to be repeated?

I only recall repeatedly asking you to demonstrate to yourself that you do (or do not) have this 'free will' that you claim we all have. Still waiting for that one.

You're asking me which is annoying enough, but when you ask God to do it, it's just plain disrespectful

At this point in our exchange, in this forum, we are simply discussing your beliefs and claims. I would not direct a question at your god any more than I would attempt to write a sincere letter to Santa.

and I highly doubt it would make any difference:

If you could demonstrate that your particular religion is an accurate description of reality, it would make all the difference in the world. I don't expect that you can. so I won't ask.

He already wrote it all down for you in the Bible.

Really? Did he actually sit a table and chair and put pen to paper? What about the oral traditions and transmissions that preceded the written copies? was he there for that as well? If these writings were so important, I'm surprised he didn't use something like gold plates to preserve the message for those of us in the future. Or did he?

If you choose not to read it or believe it then that's your loss.

What has reading it got to do with accepting your religion as an accurate description of reality? It is my understanding that many loose their faith when they sit down and read the bible in detail. It certainly comes across here as an incoherent mess.

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.

I have always found it amazing not only that people profit, but people willingly accept that those people profit off of Jesus' message when it is antithetical to the very message that they preach...

 

[StomperCrawler]

Incorrect how? If violating a commandment doesn't preclude one from entering 'heaven', what's to hold you back?

Sin separates us from God because He is sinless and will not allow sin to enter His heaven. We can choose to pay for our own sin in hell for eternity, or we can accept the gift of eternal life in Heaven through Jesus death on the cross, through which His sacrifice covers our sins. Once we have received this gift, nothing we have done or can do will change our eternal status. However, those who claim to be followers of Christ but live in unrepentant habitual sin are unlikely to have ever received this gift, since the gift itself changes us through God's Holy Spirit indwelling the true believer and changing them from the inside out so they no longer want to sin.

I only recall repeatedly asking you to demonstrate to yourself that you do (or do not) have this 'free will' that you claim we all have. Still waiting for that one.

Already demonstrated, but through your FREE WILL, you have chosen to reject it.

At this point in our exchange, in this forum, we are simply discussing your beliefs and claims. I would not direct a question at your god any more than I would attempt to write a sincere letter to Santa.

Ah, but you did. You said "If this "supreme being" can muster the effort to open their own account here and join this thread, I'll read what gets posted." You don't think God read that and thought "Of all the nerve! How many times do I have to write it down?!? I wrote it for Moses and he broke it so I wrote it again, and then I wrote out the whole shebang using 40 authors spread over 3 continents over a period of 2000 years, and now this guy wants me to write it again?!? What gives?!?"

If you could demonstrate that your particular religion is an accurate description of reality, it would make all the difference in the world. I don't expect that you can. so I won't ask.

God already did with Creation and then explaining it all in the Bible. Like the old TV show used to say, "Believe it or not!"

Really? Did he actually sit a table and chair and put pen to paper? What about the oral traditions and transmissions that preceded the written copies? was he there for that as well? If these writings were so important, I'm surprised he didn't use something like gold plates to preserve the message for those of us in the future. Or did he?

Yes He did, using the hands of inspired human authors. On gold? No. But how about preserving them on papyrus in sealed jars inside temperature-controlled caves for more than 1500 years?!? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls :shock:

What has reading it got to do with accepting your religion as an accurate description of reality? It is my understanding that many loose their faith when they sit down and read the bible in detail. It certainly comes across here as an incoherent mess.

Simple: if you haven't read it, it's illogical to say that it's "wrong" because you don't know what's in it, only what you've heard that it says. 72 hours is all it takes most people to read it one time through, and then if you still have doubts or concerns, we'll be happy to talk them through. Notable author C.S. Lewis used to think the same as you, so he read the bible through in order to prove it wrong; then he became a Christian. :ror:

 

[DavidH]

Sin separates us from God because He is sinless and will not allow sin to enter His heaven. We can choose to pay for our own sin in hell for eternity, or we can accept the gift of eternal life in Heaven through Jesus death on the cross, through which His sacrifice covers our sins. Once we have received this gift, nothing we have done or can do will change our eternal status. However, those who claim to be followers of Christ but live in unrepentant habitual sin are unlikely to have ever received this gift, since the gift itself changes us through God's Holy Spirit indwelling the true believer and changing them from the inside out so they no longer want to sin.

That fails to counter my point. I asked, if violating a commandment doesn't preclude one from entering 'heaven', what's to hold you back? You can be a murderer and still go to heaven.

Already demonstrated, but through your FREE WILL, you have chosen to reject it.

I do not claim to have free will as you describe it; the challenge was put to you, specifically for you to choose to believe that gods are only characters in books, and then later this week, choose to believe what you previously believed.

I expected you to respond with obfuscation rather than attempting the challenge and responding honestly, and you did exactly that.

Ah, but you did. You said "If this "supreme being" can muster the effort to open their own account here and join this thread, I'll read what gets posted." You don't think God read that and thought "Of all the nerve! How many times do I have to write it down?!? I wrote it for Moses and he broke it so I wrote it again, and then I wrote out the whole shebang using 40 authors spread over 3 continents over a period of 2000 years, and now this guy wants me to write it again?!? What gives?!?"

No posts were made. More obfuscation.

God already did with Creation and then explaining it all in the Bible. Like the old TV show used to say, "Believe it or not!"

Again, observations of the universe contradict what is written in the bible. You are declaring the bible to be in error each time you make this claim.

Yes He did, using the hands of inspired human authors. On gold? No.

The Mormons would beg to differ. Perhaps their god was smarter than yours.

:lmao:

But how about preserving them on papyrus in sealed jars inside temperature-controlled caves for more than 1500 years?!? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls :shock:

What about them? Originals? No. Complete? No. Those people [allegedly] had access to an all-power-all-knowing-deity-thing and that's the best they could come up with? Fail.

Simple: if you haven't read it, it's illogical to say that it's "wrong" because you don't know what's in it, only what you've heard that it says.

I know what it is about. You've got a character named "God" that [allegedly] walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, an unevidenced flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, and this character remains - by every objective measure to date - indistinguishable from nothing.

Just a high-level synopsis, of course.

72 hours is all it takes most people to read it one time through, and then if you still have doubts or concerns, we'll be happy to talk them through.

You've had your chance, and besides portraying your interpretation of it as ethically and morally bankrupt, you have not attempted to ground your claims about your religion in reality. Do you need more time?

Notable author C.S. Lewis used to think the same as you, so he read the bible through in order to prove it wrong; then he became a Christian. :ror:

Are you suggesting there is a correlation between belief and being right? lol.

“All the hundreds of millions of people who, in their time, believed the Earth was flat never succeeded in unrounding it by an inch.”

― Isaac Asimov

 

[StomperCrawler]

Praying for you DavidH, that God would break in to your life. The theme from Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad comes to mind: "Hold on to your hats & glasses; this here's the wildest ride in the wilderness!" Get back to us when you're ready to believe.

 

[DavidH]

"History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it."

- Robert Heinlein, "Notebooks of Lazarus Long," from Time Enough for Love (1973).

 

[DavidH]

Praying for you DavidH, that God would break in to your life. The theme from Disneyland's Big Thunder Mountain Railroad comes to mind: "Hold on to your hats & glasses; this here's the wildest ride in the wilderness!"

I was just on that ride just last month. Weather was great, and the park is all decorated for Christmas. "thumbsup"

I don't see the connection. Reality is the scary roller coaster, and religion the comfort blanket? Just be careful not to pull at any loose threads.

Get back to us when you're ready to believe.

I believe lots of things, and those beliefs change over time. Get back to me when you have some compelling evidence. 8)

 

[Duuuuuuuude]

I've read the Bible. Cover to cover. I can confidently say that it's wrong.

 

[StomperCrawler]

I've read the Bible. Cover to cover. I can confidently say that it's wrong.

Then it shouldn't be difficult for you to name one thing in it that's wrong.