MS Racing's UnWraithed Wraith

[TheBigRigger122]

Just curious, why do you have the lower link mounts censored in that picture?

[msrace]

I'm working on a better looking set of mounts. The ones on there are the first set I made.

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[msrace]

Front winch, esc, upper shock mount finished. Much better geometry and a nice solid package.







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[scott037]

Sway bar

I'm also a 1 to1 guy. But my buggy is stuck on the obstacles called broke sob jack stands.

[adamk]

Why such a low anti-squat? What will end up happening with it being that low is when you climb a steep, high traction incline, the rear will drop and your CG will go past axle centerline and cause it to roll backwards.

[wouterb]

Originally Posted by adamk

Why such a low anti-squat? What will end up happening with it being that low is when you climb a steep, high traction incline, the rear will drop and your CG will go past axle centerline and cause it to roll backwards.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but making it squat will lower the CG and thus keep it on the right side of the rear axle. Right?
Otherway around, making the rear climb (+100% squat) will lift the CG. And due to fhe vertical orientation and acceleration of the rig, possibly over the rear axle and flip it backwards.
Concider I'm learning before flaming

[msrace]

Weight placement is very important especially up front cause it can have a lever affect. Having the as that low will in fact drop the chassis on a climb and help bite in as opposed to just be a solid pivot point like you would get on a high as. Wouterb is on the right track. Notice I didn't go just under 100% I went way under. The problem with too high an as and it will stop digging for traction.

[adamk]

Originally Posted by wouterb

Correct me if I'm wrong, but making it squat will lower the CG and thus keep it on the right side of the rear axle. Right?
Otherway around, making the rear climb (+100% squat) will lift the CG. And due to fhe vertical orientation and acceleration of the rig, possibly over the rear axle and flip it backwards.
Concider I'm learning before flaming

Originally Posted by msrace

Weight placement is very important especially up front cause it can have a lever affect. Having the as that low will in fact drop the chassis on a climb and help bite in as opposed to just be a solid pivot point like you would get on a high as. Wouterb is on the right track. Notice I didn't go just under 100% I went way under. The problem with too high an as and it will stop digging for traction.

I understand the higher numbers causing to loose traction as the rear wants to lift. I guess what I don't get is when it's that low, although your CG on flat ground will decrease, you're actually pulling your center line closer to vertical on an incline thus making it want to roll over backwards right?

[msrace]

One thing to remember is your as will change throughout the travel. If you have a design that swings drastically as the suspension moves, it can actually induce more movement. When I design a suspension, I try to keep the as changes more on the minimum through the range of travel making it more consistent and more pridictable. Another thing to keep in mind is what direction the as numbers swing in relation to travel. My preference for that is based on use. In this case being a crawler I set the as to raise in bump travel and lower in droop.

[adamk]

Originally Posted by msrace

One thing to remember is your as will change throughout the travel. If you have a design that swings drastically as the suspension moves, it can actually induce more movement. When I design a suspension, I try to keep the as changes more on the minimum through the range of travel making it more consistent and more pridictable. Another thing to keep in mind is what direction the as numbers swing in relation to travel. My preference for that is based on use. In this case being a crawler I set the as to raise in bump travel and lower in droop.

I'm following you. Where did you find the 4 link calculator version you're working with? I've got an older version that doesn't show the bump/droop AS numbers, only static.

[msrace]

I'm using the one I got onothing pirate 4x4. I scaled up all the measurements to keep it as accurate as I could.

[msrace]

Don't overlook what I'm doing up front when I comes to near vertical climbs either.

[adamk]

Originally Posted by msrace

Don't overlook what I'm doing up front when I comes to near vertical climbs either.

I didn't see what you're doing for the front. I assume you've got low AS numbers there as well? I'll jump over to Pirate and see if I can find the version you're using. I would be really nice to see how the numbers change through suspension travel.

[msrace]

The first picture in post #43 says it all, well sort of. To give you an idea, my antisquat goes from 28% to 29% in three inches of bump travel.

[StomperCrawler]

Wow... you are quickly becoming my crawling superhero! I never realized all the math involved in creating a better crawler. Is there anywhere online I can go to learn more about this?

[msrace]

Lol thanks. As far as where to learn this stuff, that's a tough one, but you can start on some of the threads on pirate 4x4. It's all full size stuff, but the principles are the same. But it's tough cause you have to weed through a lot to find any valid info. I spent a few months studying suspension design before building my first one. And I've learned a lot wheeling with some very talented competitors.

[adamk]

Originally Posted by msrace

The first picture in post #43 says it all, well sort of. To give you an idea, my antisquat goes from 28% to 29% in three inches of bump travel.

Gotcha. I saw the coilover location change but couldn't tell with the links. You've done a very good job and thanks for the info

[msrace]

It's actually not the shocks or links, that little orange string has a whole bunch to do with it. Think cg manipulation.

[wouterb]

Originally Posted by msrace

It's actually not the shocks or links, that little orange string has a whole bunch to do with it. Think cg manipulation.

ROFL!
Got me as wel.

Anyway, I downloaded the calculator. homework time.

"...I set the AS to raise in bump travel and lower in droop..."

This one is intriguing. Wondering about the link placement to accomplish this.
At a bump a shorter upper (common set up) will bring the AS aft, nearer to the axle. Not 'higher' unless your AS traverses to behind the lower frame mount.

Or am I loosing 'the right track' now?

[wouterb]

Originally Posted by msrace

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Looking at this I see you moved your upper axle mounts forward. effectively shortening the upper links and this makes the AS move to the rear more during bump.
Giving it a progressive character... I guess.