Colorado Scale Series

[TURTLE]

I have talked to Todd and Jeff and they have agreed to hand over the scale series to Patrick, Rodney and myself.

We plan to start the series back up in a few months, but we are going through everything to try and stream line the rules and outlines for courses. We would like to keep with the SORCCA rig rules as this will allow drivers to be ready for National Scale events if they would like to go.
However for course rules we are thinking of using the USRCCA rules, the only change that would occur with those course rules is winching, which we think would fall under a 5 point penalty.

We are also working with the types of courses that will be ran, making the events more like W.E.ROCK/URock events with a twist of a weekend 4x4 trip.

After running the TTC series we have become a little spoiled with simplistic rule systems, so we are going to try and keep with this tradition and keep things as simple as possible while emphasizing fun first and foremost.

If anyone has any suggestions, comments or concerns please let us know. Over the next month we will have all the details ironed out and the series planned out.

Thanks
Ty

[twiztid4x4]

Winching penalty suck. It's like telling a comp rig there a penalty for using dig. Using a winch go's with scaling. Like using a dig go's with comp rig.

[neoakaj]

Originally Posted by twiztid4x4

Winching penalty suck. It's like telling a comp rig there a penalty for using dig. Using a winch go's with scaling. Like using a dig go's with comp rig.

Yea I agree

[Ramset]

Originally Posted by twiztid4x4

Winching penalty suck. It's like telling a comp rig there a penalty for using dig. Using a winch go's with scaling. Like using a dig go's with comp rig.

I third that.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by twiztid4x4

Winching penalty suck. It's like telling a comp rig there a penalty for using dig. Using a winch go's with scaling. Like using a dig go's with comp rig.

Why even attempt a difficult climb if you could just winch it for no penalty?

Having a penalty for winching emphasizes driving rather then winching everything.

Even at 5 points its still less then taking a gate.

If a climb is not climbable then everyone will get the points. If a climb is doable and you decide to winch it then thats not smart driving.

This a drivers hobby if you want to pull yourself through everything take the motor out and pull it around with a string.

[R2j]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

Why even attempt a difficult climb if you could just winch it for no penalty?

Having a penalty for winching emphasizes driving rather then winching everything.

Even at 5 points its still less then taking a gate.

If a climb is not climbable then everyone will get the points. If a climb is doable and you decide to winch it then thats not smart driving.

This a drivers hobby if you want to pull yourself through everything take the motor out and pull it around with a string.

I agree and disagree.

I agree that it could be used too much, rather than actually try a climb. And I have witnessed this in the past. But the course's should also be designed with scale in mind and not a comp rig course. That way the winch is used as a last resort.


I disagree because I feel that winching is part of the fun. And also rigs are built in different degrees of scale. Not all are equally capable and may need a little help.

Maybe not 5 point penalty, but something in between. I personal try to drive the course without any help, but depending on it's design, winching might be my only option.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by R2j

I agree and disagree.

I agree that it could be used too much, rather than actually try a climb. And I have witnessed this in the past. But the course's should also be designed with scale in mind and not a comp rig course. That way the winch is used as a last resort.


I disagree because I feel that winching is part of the fun. And also rigs are built in different degrees of scale. Not all are equally capable and may need a little help.

Maybe not 5 point penalty, but something in between. I personal try to drive the course without any help, but depending on it's design, winching might be my only option.

I agree with you to a degree. You should really make it out to a top truck event, then you will see how we build scale courses. We have had two or three spots you have to winch in the last 4 events.
We don't build difficult courses, we leave that up to the driver to over complicate it.

Winching although scale is not what competition is all about, its about fun clean driving, as you said winching as a last resort. If your a good driver winching should't be on your mind. Chances are if its a last resort and you have to do it a lot of others will too.

It really shouldn't matter if its worth 5 or 50 points. But the more points its worth the more we will get to see drivers driving lines instead of winching them.

However I can see your point that it could be worth less, but creating subcategories to the score sheets, creates more room for error and more work for the judges at events.
These events are suppose to be fun for everyone including the judges.

I agree that there are different levels of scale which, in my mind, is why there are 3 classes in the scale series. Don't forget this is a competition series, if you don't want to compete or are just in it to have fun don't compete or come out to events and don't worry about the points and just have fun. By no means is anyone talking about making winching illegal all we want to do is make it a last resort.

On top of all this it could lead into the money area that scares people away from comp rigs, the rigs that have free spooling winches and variable speed controls will have more opportunities to harness the power of their winches if its worth less points, mean time everyone with 3racing winches are wasting their time struggling to progress by a slow winch.

Just coming from Scale Nationals in Montana this was the biggest complaint I heard. Winching was only 1 point and everyone thought that was terrible, instead of drivers attempting obstacles they just pulled out the winch line and took their point.

Also, I love going to events and running them, but I don't want to be there for 14 hours while 20 guys spend 20 minutes per course, because everyone wants to winch themselves all over the place and kill the clock.

I would like to have long courses that are drivable, fun and challenging, not impossible unless you have a winch.

These are my views on the subject.

[R2j]

All valid points. And I don't see it as trying to ban winching, but to merely promote more driving skills. I don't dispute the proposed penalty, I just think there is going to be more opposition to it. I hope I'm wrong.....but who knows.

[DeaDShorT]

My thought is this: If and when I come to a scale event, with my oldest son in tow, that we are there to drive our toy trucks and have fun. Points won't really matter to either of us, and if we need to pull line to winch up a section it will be after exhausting our ability to pick and drive a line in a reasonable amount of time as a courtesy to the other competitors and event organizers.

I think 5 points on each winch attempt is reasonable, and it will show the drivers VS. the winchers better in the scoring.

[Rogue]

My opinion on this for what it is worth is this:

Winching is defiantly part of scale and what truly separates it from comp rigs. Comp rigs not all that long ago looked like some of the scalers that I have seen running around.

I have heard the argument that if winching is free or only one point like the the SORRCA rules have them, that winching will be abused. Yes, I guess I can see that at a National event or possibly other locations throughout the country. Here though it has never really been a problem. Even with what people knew about Jeff and some of his courses is was still not possible for some to even install winches. Most times here the courses had to be made with a winch location in mind and then many times someone would drive through it with out needing it. I've see a couple of times where something was not drivable and others offering a winch to help out and the driver not accepting it and breaking the rig instead of accepting the help.

From what I have seen winching is really not an issue here, but I do feel that it needs to be penalized. SORRCA does have this down for items to be discussed for the next revision and I do feel that it will be raised to 2-3 points. I do feel that 5 for a winch is a little much especially when a hand of god roll over is also worth just 5.

At the end of the day, I don't care, I'll be there to have fun when I'm able to make it. I won't be chasing a series title or invite to Nats. I'll be there just to have fun and hang out with some good guys and play with toy trucks.

Ty, Rodney, you guys have my support and symphony. I'll be looking forward to making it out once this things gets rolling.

[RPMJ]

I think the main reason for the winching penalty is time. We are trying to speed things up.

[666]

I just want everyone to have fun and beat their trucks!!

I'm gonna mount up the slowest winch I can find and make you wait all day for me to spool it out 10 feet at a time, and giggle the whole time!! 5 points, 10 points, I don't care just don't tell me I grabbed my truck wrong...

[toka100]

so is there going to be the 3 classes? mostly class 2 and 3.. i know that depends on attendance

[twiztid4x4]

I see your point ty, and i hate using my slow ass winch.! But I allways try to make a hillclimb twice befor the winch come out. But thats why all I do is scalers, becuase it just fun.

[RPMJ]

Originally Posted by Rogue

My opinion on this for what it is worth is this:

Winching is defiantly part of scale and what truly separates it from comp rigs. Comp rigs not all that long ago looked like some of the scalers that I have seen running around.

I have heard the argument that if winching is free or only one point like the the SORRCA rules have them, that winching will be abused. Yes, I guess I can see that at a National event or possibly other locations throughout the country. Here though it has never really been a problem. Even with what people knew about Jeff and some of his courses is was still not possible for some to even install winches. Most times here the courses had to be made with a winch location in mind and then many times someone would drive through it with out needing it. I've see a couple of times where something was not drivable and others offering a winch to help out and the driver not accepting it and breaking the rig instead of accepting the help.

From what I have seen winching is really not an issue here, but I do feel that it needs to be penalized. SORRCA does have this down for items to be discussed for the next revision and I do feel that it will be raised to 2-3 points. I do feel that 5 for a winch is a little much especially when a hand of god roll over is also worth just 5.

At the end of the day, I don't care, I'll be there to have fun when I'm able to make it. I won't be chasing a series title or invite to Nats. I'll be there just to have fun and hang out with some good guys and play with toy trucks.

Ty, Rodney, you guys have my support and symphony. I'll be looking forward to making it out once this things gets rolling.

Thanks Todd I can't thank you enough for all you have done for the scale crowd in the area. We aren't saying you cant use your winch, we're saying let's speed up the whole process. We want people to HAVE FUN.

[Rogue]

I agree and what ever is done I have no opinion on it. If I can make the dates that are chosen I'll be there. All I plan to do is show up drive the courses and screw off when I'm not running a course. It will be a very welcome change for me to have some more drive between courses!

[Grizzly4x4]

I have always been against penalizing winching. I think winching is at the heart of scale crawling, it's one of the few things that differentiates it from comp rigs. Winching is also one of the ways to allow super scale rigs, built to look scale, to compete against "cheater" scalers that are built for performance. By putting more emphasis on driving you put more emphasis on building performance scalers. If time is the issue, put a time limit on the course.

However, if winching is going to be discouraged it seems that the "HOG" should be even more discouraged. A five point winch penalty should mean a 10 point HOG in my opinion.

[TURTLE]

So besides winching are there any other concerns?

[C*H*U*D]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Winching is also one of the ways to allow super scale rigs, built to look scale, to compete against "cheater" scalers that are built for performance.

I have to agree with Chris about this one, because I think the way the points are set up is the problem. There is no incentive to build a "scale" truck over a "performance" truck. If the course is set up to favor the faster performance trucks, then is it really a scale course?

Originally Posted by TURTLE

So besides winching are there any other concerns?

I'm against tires floating down the course faster than the truck they came from

[C*H*U*D]

In all seriousness, I think the full size spare setup is wrong. Having a spare tire, setup to fall out of your truck at the start, is just skirting around the system to me. The spare should have to complete the course, and should have to be used on at least one course in order to get the full points.

However I think it should be worth more than what it is currently set at. I don't run a spare because I don't feel it's worth it...change the points to change my mind and things become more interesting.