RCCrawler Forums

Charlie-III · 07-06-2011, 08:50 PM

While I'm no expert, there is the possibility that a "dual voltage rated AC motor" has more going on inside. Thus the changes per my link.
I'm NOT argueing, just stating.

Manning, it's cool.....just bringing different views to this discussion.

JRH, same for you.

EddieO · 07-06-2011, 09:56 PM

Big Jim always told me to ignore most AC motor theory when it came to our motors.....while some stuff is similar, the way they work is a totally different animal.

Basically the way it was always explained to me was that when you increase voltage, you increase amp draw if all else is the same. Basically additional voltage creates additional RPM...more RPM requires more power, etc....

There is an easy old test to this.....6 cell 1/12th scale vs 4 cell 1/12th scale....same everything, even gearing......you will never make run time with the 6 cell on some tracks, while you can with ease on 4 cell.......there was a reason 6 cell mod 1/12th scale died out and it all went 4 cell......

I plan to work on the test leads tomorrow if I have all the stuff, but don't hold yer breath....orders come first.

Later EddieO

indiana mudcat · 07-06-2011, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie-III

While I'm no expert, there is the possibility that a "dual voltage rated AC motor" has more going on inside. Thus the changes per my link.
I'm NOT argueing, just stating.

Manning, it's cool.....just bringing different views to this discussion.

JRH, same for you.

One phase vs two phase same motor, of course the single phase has more draw. 2s vs 4s both are still single phase, apples and oranges.

Charlie-III · 07-06-2011, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indiana mudcat

One phase vs two phase same motor, of course the single phase has more draw. 2s vs 4s both are still single phase, apples and oranges.

Hmmm....in AC motors I know of single phase and 3 phase, where do you get 2 phase??

indiana mudcat · 07-06-2011, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie-III

Hmmm....in AC motors I know of single phase and 3 phase, where do you get 2 phase??

220 is double phase, always has been always will be. When you look down the panel in your house every other breaker swaps phase instead of every third in a three phase system (A,B,A,B instead of A,B,C,A,B,C,).

I've only had two years experience with three phase, in a steel mill with an electrical contractor though. 64,000 volt 4/0 is some fun stuff

. What I never understood (and never cared enough to think about until now) is how two 110 phases make 220 yet three 110 phases make 440 instead of 330.

KIWI_CRAWL · 07-07-2011, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indiana mudcat

. What I never understood (and never cared enough to think about until now) is how two 110 phases make 220 yet three 110 phases make 440 instead of 330.

sounds like your line voltage (voltage per phase) is higher on your 3 phase system, about 250 volts by my calculations.

I cant comment on how two phase systems becuase we get 230v per phase here in NZ

Charlie-III · 07-07-2011, 01:22 AM

Indiana, call it what you want, but there is single phase 110/120VAC & 208/220VAC and 3 phase 208/220VAC & 440/480VAC in the US (yes, there is also 277VAC lighting).
There is no "2 phase" (would love to see it in a NEC code book). For what you call "2 phase" is 2 hot leads vs. a hot & neutral, still single phase though.

Charlie-III · 07-07-2011, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIWI_CRAWL

sounds like your line voltage (voltage per phase) is higher on your 3 phase system, about 250 volts by my calculations.

I cant comment on how two phase systems because we get 230v per phase here in NZ

Some is determined by is the power supplied by a "WYE" or "Delta" transformer. This can change the phase to phase & phase to ground voltage.

Charlie-III · 07-13-2011, 06:19 AM

Well, I guess we covered everything in this thread.

General AC info: http://www.powertogo.ca/phases.htm

Wiki single phase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-...electric_power

Wiki 3 phase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power

While there is no "2 phase" definition, there are a couple of "2 phase" callouts, in general though, you have single phase or 3 phase. A single phase can be hot to ground or hot to hot.

Three phase it hot to hot to hot.

Our brushless RC motors are a generated 3 phase system (from a DC source, similar to a 3 phase off of a single phase AC source using a convertor), switching any 2 wires will reverse motor rotation.

Unlike other sources of power (gas engines) electric motors make max torque at "0" RPM's. It tapers down from there.

NOTE: "hot" means live vs. a ground or neutral wire.

indiana mudcat · 07-13-2011, 02:10 PM

My point was in a 110 motor one wire feeds it, 220 is fed by two wires. A motor on 110 pulling 10 amps on a single wire, on 220 even at the same 10 amps it's 10 amps per wire.

Manning · 07-13-2011, 05:46 PM

Covered everything except for an actual test of different wire gauges and the difference in power output of the motor......

EddieO · 07-13-2011, 06:03 PM

Working on it....I picked up the connectors.....just have not had time, as I am trying to get these mini motors done.....people get angry when yer a day late on a preorder...

Later EddieO

Manning · 07-13-2011, 08:16 PM

No problem, keep on windin'.

EddieO · 07-13-2011, 08:19 PM

I am past that part! These suckers are in the oven now, getting cut and balanced tomorrow!

Later EddieO

JohnRobHolmes · 07-13-2011, 09:35 PM

Nice! Can't wait to see the little peepers.

WAM · 07-24-2011, 07:04 PM

Just to throw another log on the campfire, remember that ac has to be treated differently than dc. It is not 120v. That's just the peak voltage and it varies between + and - 120 and averages zero

. Enter RMS (root-mean-squared) or some such.

But that's a tangent. What I wanted to ask about was how you're doing multi-wire junctions. My battery has to feed two esc's and a bec. I could solder up a squid, but was wondering about just soldering ring terminals to everything and then joining them with a trimmed bolt and nut. Advantage would be abililty to easily disassemble. Disadvantages, maybe a pain to insulate cleanly. And lotsa solder joints to fracture.

I'm betting there's a better way and one of you guys will spill it.

JohnRobHolmes · 07-25-2011, 10:38 AM

If you are soldering the ring terminals, you will be dealing with a lot of solder work anyway. A little deans plug Y harness with power feeding to the BEC directly would be about the cleanest way to do it.

WAM · 07-25-2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

If you are soldering the ring terminals, you will be dealing with a lot of solder work anyway. A little deans plug Y harness with power feeding to the BEC directly would be about the cleanest way to do it.

Yeah, but two esc's plus the bec. So I'd need to solder three wires to each Dean's terminals, right? That's six wires leading to the one battery connector. Sounds kinda congested. Does anybody sell a clean Deans Ultra female to three male plugs?

Tower has a Y and a hard Deans T, but those are both two-output and I need three.

JohnRobHolmes · 07-25-2011, 10:56 AM

I use this plug http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php...&cat=11&page=1

Then you just hardwire the BEC into the plug directly and all connections are taken care of. Not the lightest or smallest way, but the cleanest and easiest.

igbandy · 07-25-2011, 11:53 AM

Just a small heads up on "2 phase"

Most generator`s that kick out 110volt and 220volt have two lots of 110volt windings. On 110 volt the amperage is doubled say for instance 16amp output, when 220volt is switched in the amperage is halfed to say 8amps. This is because the two 110volt windings are combined to give 220volts.

This I am guessing could be classed as "2 phase" although in all my time as a plant fitter (25+ years) I have never heard it called that.

07-13-2011, 06:19 AM	#89
Charlie-III I wanna be Dave Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: 07456 N. NJ USofA Posts: 8,314	Well, I guess we covered everything in this thread. General AC info: http://www.powertogo.ca/phases.htm Wiki single phase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-...electric_power Wiki 3 phase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power While there is no "2 phase" definition, there are a couple of "2 phase" callouts, in general though, you have single phase or 3 phase. A single phase can be hot to ground or hot to hot. Three phase it hot to hot to hot. Our brushless RC motors are a generated 3 phase system (from a DC source, similar to a 3 phase off of a single phase AC source using a convertor), switching any 2 wires will reverse motor rotation. Unlike other sources of power (gas engines) electric motors make max torque at "0" RPM's. It tapers down from there. NOTE: "hot" means live vs. a ground or neutral wire. Last edited by Charlie-III; 07-13-2011 at 06:48 AM. Reason: Added links

07-06-2011, 08:50 PM	#81
Charlie-III I wanna be Dave Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: 07456 N. NJ USofA Posts: 8,314	While I'm no expert, there is the possibility that a "dual voltage rated AC motor" has more going on inside. Thus the changes per my link. I'm NOT argueing, just stating. Manning, it's cool.....just bringing different views to this discussion. JRH, same for you.

07-06-2011, 09:56 PM	#82
EddieO I wanna be Dave Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arlington, Washington Posts: 2,303	Big Jim always told me to ignore most AC motor theory when it came to our motors.....while some stuff is similar, the way they work is a totally different animal. Basically the way it was always explained to me was that when you increase voltage, you increase amp draw if all else is the same. Basically additional voltage creates additional RPM...more RPM requires more power, etc.... There is an easy old test to this.....6 cell 1/12th scale vs 4 cell 1/12th scale....same everything, even gearing......you will never make run time with the 6 cell on some tracks, while you can with ease on 4 cell.......there was a reason 6 cell mod 1/12th scale died out and it all went 4 cell...... I plan to work on the test leads tomorrow if I have all the stuff, but don't hold yer breath....orders come first. Later EddieO

07-07-2011, 01:22 AM	#87
Charlie-III I wanna be Dave Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: 07456 N. NJ USofA Posts: 8,314	Indiana, call it what you want, but there is single phase 110/120VAC & 208/220VAC and 3 phase 208/220VAC & 440/480VAC in the US (yes, there is also 277VAC lighting). There is no "2 phase" (would love to see it in a NEC code book). For what you call "2 phase" is 2 hot leads vs. a hot & neutral, still single phase though.

07-13-2011, 02:10 PM	#90
indiana mudcat RCC Addict Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: reelsville Posts: 1,871	My point was in a 110 motor one wire feeds it, 220 is fed by two wires. A motor on 110 pulling 10 amps on a single wire, on 220 even at the same 10 amps it's 10 amps per wire.

07-13-2011, 05:46 PM	#91
Manning RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lowell, Arkansas Posts: 1,307	Covered everything except for an actual test of different wire gauges and the difference in power output of the motor......

07-13-2011, 06:03 PM	#92
EddieO I wanna be Dave Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arlington, Washington Posts: 2,303	Working on it....I picked up the connectors.....just have not had time, as I am trying to get these mini motors done.....people get angry when yer a day late on a preorder... Later EddieO

07-13-2011, 08:16 PM	#93
Manning RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lowell, Arkansas Posts: 1,307	No problem, keep on windin'.

07-13-2011, 08:19 PM	#94
EddieO I wanna be Dave Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arlington, Washington Posts: 2,303	I am past that part! These suckers are in the oven now, getting cut and balanced tomorrow! Later EddieO

07-13-2011, 09:35 PM	#95
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	Nice! Can't wait to see the little peepers.

07-24-2011, 07:04 PM	#96
WAM Rock Crawler Join Date: May 2011 Location: SoCal Posts: 949	Just to throw another log on the campfire, remember that ac has to be treated differently than dc. It is not 120v. That's just the peak voltage and it varies between + and - 120 and averages zero . Enter RMS (root-mean-squared) or some such. But that's a tangent. What I wanted to ask about was how you're doing multi-wire junctions. My battery has to feed two esc's and a bec. I could solder up a squid, but was wondering about just soldering ring terminals to everything and then joining them with a trimmed bolt and nut. Advantage would be abililty to easily disassemble. Disadvantages, maybe a pain to insulate cleanly. And lotsa solder joints to fracture. I'm betting there's a better way and one of you guys will spill it.

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07-25-2011, 10:38 AM	#97
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	If you are soldering the ring terminals, you will be dealing with a lot of solder work anyway. A little deans plug Y harness with power feeding to the BEC directly would be about the cleanest way to do it.

07-25-2011, 10:56 AM	#99
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	I use this plug http://holmeshobbies.com/product.php...&cat=11&page=1 Then you just hardwire the BEC into the plug directly and all connections are taken care of. Not the lightest or smallest way, but the cleanest and easiest.

07-25-2011, 11:53 AM	#100
igbandy Pebble Pounder Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Tamworth, England. Posts: 124	Just a small heads up on "2 phase" Most generator`s that kick out 110volt and 220volt have two lots of 110volt windings. On 110 volt the amperage is doubled say for instance 16amp output, when 220volt is switched in the amperage is halfed to say 8amps. This is because the two 110volt windings are combined to give 220volts. This I am guessing could be classed as "2 phase" although in all my time as a plant fitter (25+ years) I have never heard it called that.

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