Droop Vs. others

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by Rockpiledriver

I never said anything about Run2 making a different chassis design.

They are ALL different animals.

One thing you can do with a droop chassis, is easily limit articulation as well as unloading, this can be achieved with something as simple as a zip tie, or as complex as a winch. Not as easy on a sprung rig and down right impossible on a torsion. Either way, Highmark made a very good point, none of this force on the tires really matters in rock crawling since the terrain is so varied. The weight of the vehicle itself, and where that weigh is placed has FAR more effect on traction then suspension does.

You can limit the articulation on a Torsion. There is a few ways to do so. I can tell you haven't really set one up. Which thats fine. I haven't set up a Droop set up either. Thats why I asked this question as I have a few builds going on. But I never really got my answer.

You can limit the articulation the same way with either a Sprung or Droop set up. A Zip tie and a Winch would do the same things. Ones not any easier then the other as that goes. Know with a torsion it is harder to do so. It takes more time to dial in things like that on a Torsion chassis. Weight comes into play alot more on a Torsion chassis then any other chassis out.

Suspension does have alot to do with Crawling. But weight and balance is a big factor as well. Force on Tires is always important. It can mean the difference from lifting a tire or not. From getting traction to not.

Now how does a Droop set up work and Why? Doesn't the shock always want to stay closed. So then it would always pull up a little on the tire. What would make it better then a normal 4 link and Sprung set up? Whats the Disadvantages and Advantages? The way a suspension works, the Force thats applied and the Roll Center are all very important and have been brought up. But how do they factor between the two designs?

[KRAWLR4life]

To sum up my understanding of droop, when your crawler wants to articulate, it dosent have to fight the spring, using a small internal spring allows it to "act" like a shock but but not fight the articulation.
The big advantage is you have WAY more adjustability than spring. It seems like you need to set up a REAL rig with droop, learn how and why it works and then get back to this discussion, its like bringing a knife to a gun fight, but once you do your own evaluations instead of assumtions, you would understand where the "DROOPIES" are coming from.
BTW, I dont mean to hack when I say "Stick" I just never believed in them, no matter how well they do.
~John

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by KRAWLR4life

R2J, I know you know alot, but dude, your opinion has become almost like a "lesson" to some of us and some of us cannot be "Schooled" on certian things... its a age difference thing I guess. In my opinion, your "stick" should not even be included in this discussion of droop and spring and like Rockpile said, it really depends on where your at, and how your chassis is setup. Droop works great on round, steep desert type rock, lava/beach rock to where spring works great on jagged, river bedrock, so to say what will be an advantage or disadvantage when it comes to suspension really depends if you have "Been there or done that". Thats the beauty of living in SO CAL, we have just about every style of rock you would want to test with...
~John

I'm not try to do a lesson or School anyone. Just trying to figure it out in my head. I have seen many guys compare it to 1:1 droop set ups. Thats kind of miss leading. I have never seen a 1:1 set up like these Droop set ups. Thats way I'm trying to figure it out. I just want a straight answer. And your right the Pimp Cane can't be even close to being compared to either set up. Nor can the Stick even. Both have a fixed point on the axles. Where you can have any axle Drop. I guess you could limit that with a Sprung or Droop set up if a Center Limiting strap was used.

[Rockpiledriver]

John,

The only reason I brought the torsion chassis into this discussion is that in my opinion it's performance would be closer to a droop set-up then to a sprung set-up, that is all.

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by KRAWLR4life

To sum up my understanding of droop, when your crawler wants to articulate, it dosent have to fight the spring, using a small internal spring allows it to "act" like a shock but but not fight the articulation.
The big advantage is you have WAY more adjustability than spring. It seems like you need to set up a REAL rig with droop, learn how and why it works and then get back to this discussion, its like bringing a knife to a gun fight, but once you do your own evaluations instead of assumtions, you would understand where the "DROOPIES" are coming from.
BTW, I dont mean to hack when I say "Stick" I just never believed in them, no matter how well they do.
~John

Have you set up a Droop in the 1:1 World just like these Rc Droop set ups? I have never seen it used in 1:1 Comps. In the 1:1 buggys they use Coil-Overs which are closer to Are shocks then the Droop set up ones. In the 1:1 World Droop set up means that you adjusted you springs or Coil-overs and shocks to have more droop then the up travel. You also set Bump Stops to almost No up travel and leave everything else as down travel. Now the springs used on a 1:1 Coil-over are matched to that rigs weight. I'm not bring a knife to the gun show. I know how suspensions work in the 1:1 world.

How does a Droop set up have more adjustability then a Sprung set up?

[KRAWLR4life]

Originally Posted by Rockpiledriver

John,

The only reason I brought the torsion chassis into this discussion is that in my opinion it's performance would be closer to a droop set-up then to a sprung set-up, that is all.

I understand
~John

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by Rockpiledriver

John,

The only reason I brought the torsion chassis into this discussion is that in my opinion it's performance would be closer to a droop set-up then to a sprung set-up, that is all.

But really they're not. The only factor that would be close is that both could float a wheel where a Sprung set up couldn't. Because the shock is pulling the tire back up.

A torsion chassis uses it's whole chassis as it works across the rocks. The others Droop, Sprung what ever use the shocks to control everything.

[KRAWLR4life]

OK now your on 1:1, I know your trying to compare the two, but like you said eairlier, their different, way different, the weight ratio can not be compared/converted to scale. So what I know of droop in r/c (and I am no expert) is that you can limit up/down travel alot faster and adjustability is more precise than a spring setup, no matter how soft of a spring you use. And the knife to a gun fight thing was in referrence to r/c suspension, not 1:1, you may be an expert at that but were talking r/c.
~John

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by KRAWLR4life

OK now your on 1:1, I know your trying to compare the two, but like you said eairlier, their different, way different, the weight ratio can not be compared/converted to scale. So what I know of droop in r/c (and I am no expert) is that you can limit up/down travel alot faster and adjustability is more precise than a spring setup, no matter how soft of a spring you use. And the knife to a gun fight thing was in reference to r/c suspension, not 1:1, you may be an expert at that but were talking r/c.
~John

I only brought the 1:1 thing up since thats how I have seen it compared to in other threads buy other members. I know they can't be compared... Also for alot of us comparing to the 1:1 world helps understand a few things. I know the weight thing doesn't compare very well. But the same basic principles still apply. Like Links set up and COG all play factors in a chassis design.

How can you limit the travel of a Droop set up faster and more precise then a Spring set up?

[run2jeepn]

This as gotten way out of hand. None of the questions on how it works and why are being answered. Everything keeps getting the run around and pawned off and compaired to a Torsion chassis.

Can someone please tell me why it works so good and that the internal spring on the shocks helps more then just keeping the chassis low? Thats all I'm wainting to figure out.

[KRAWLR4life]

Originally Posted by Rockpiledriver

One thing you can do with a droop chassis, is easily limit articulation as well as unloading, this can be achieved with something as simple as a zip tie

Its that simple

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by KRAWLR4life

Its that simple

It's that simple on a Sprung rig as well. Is it not?


If I'm just way off just tell me. But I no one as answered anything that I asked.

[KRAWLR4life]

Originally Posted by run2jeepn

This as gotten way out of hand. None of the questions on how it works and why are being answered. Everything keeps getting the run around and pawned off and compaired to a Torsion chassis.

Can someone please tell me why it works so good and that the internal spring on the shocks helps more then just keeping the chassis low? Thats all I'm wainting to figure out.

Dude, settle down, build a Droop rig, then ask all the questions you want, I think once you do that, everyone will be on the same page, and maybe you would get a better understanding and we or I would understand what your trully looking for, there really isnt any SCIENTIFIC anwser at this point.
Its all good, we need discussions like this, we all learn form threads like this.
~John

[Etype R]

Without springs, the right side of the truck fully extends, raising your COG. Also the springs keep the shocks from unloading on side hills.

For the most part I really do not know the physics behind why droop works for me, but it does what I want it too. If you are curious about it, build a droop rig and try it.

The torsion is only being tossed in I think, because it is also unsprung. Though I wouldn't compare them my self.

[KRAWLR4life]

Originally Posted by run2jeepn

It's that simple on a Sprung rig as well. Is it not?

No, start off with the softest spring known to man, add zip ties or clips and its only going to get stiffer, now take the spring off, now you have a floppy suspension, you can either stiffen a little or alot, you can make it travel 1/4 inch or travel to 3 inch, with a srung shock, you have to take it apart, put fuel tubing or like type spacer, blah blah blah.
Anyway, just build one then evaluate.
~John

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by KRAWLR4life

Dude, settle down, build a Droop rig, then ask all the questions you want, I think once you do that, everyone will be on the same page, and maybe you would get a better understanding and we or I would understand what your trully looking for, there really isnt any SCIENTIFIC anwser at this point.
Its all good, we need discussions like this, we all learn form threads like this.
~John

I'm cool. I'm just trying to figure it out.

Originally Posted by Etype R

Without springs, the right side of the truck fully extends, raising your COG. Also the springs keep the shocks from unloading on side hills.

For the most part I really do not know the physics behind why droop works for me, but it does what I want it too. If you are curious about it, build a droop rig and try it.

The torsion is only being tossed in I think, because it is also unsprung. Though I wouldn't compare them my self.

The only reason I can think of thats better over a Sprung set is that the spring is never unloading and keeps the body in tight. Which would make it feel more stable on side hills and such. But is that it's only upside? I will build a droop set up and try the internal spring set up like that. And I bet it will crawl fine. I just think that a good normal 4 link set up with limitations on the Shock Travel would do better is all. You can still get the low COG when setting up any 4 link set up either Droop or Sprung. Correct?

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by KRAWLR4life

No, start off with the softest spring known to man, add zip ties or clips and its only going to get stiffer, now take the spring off, now you have a floppy suspension, you can either stiffen a little or alot, you can make it travel 1/4 inch or travel to 3 inch, with a srung shock, you have to take it apart, put fuel tubing or like type spacer, blah blah blah.
Anyway, just build one then evaluate.
~John

Where would you put the zip ties or Clips on a internal spring set up like that?

On a sprung rig you don't have to take the shock apart to limit it's up travel. You just take the bottom heim joint off and put a spacer on the shaft. To limit down travel just had a Limiting strap. Where would you put a Spacer on a Droop set up? If you put a spacer on the inside that just shorten the down travel. If you put the spacer on the outside on the shocks shaft thats like giving it a lift. But would put more tension on the internal spring.

[KRAWLR4life]

Originally Posted by run2jeepn

I'm cool. I'm just trying to figure it out.



The only reason I can think of thats better over a Sprung set is that the spring is never unloading and keeps the body in tight. Which would make it feel more stable on side hills and such. But is that it's only upside? I will build a droop set up and try the internal spring set up like that. And I bet it will crawl fine. I just think that a good normal 4 link set up with limitations on the Shock Travel would do better is all. You can still get the low COG when setting up any 4 link set up either Droop or Sprung. Correct?

Everything your saying here is true... depending on the type of rock/incline, I agree, a spung setup does have its advantages, but it seems droop setup has MORE advantages, thats from my experience anyway. I think your wanting to know the anwser to this is awsome, it shows how trully pationate you are about our hobby and competition!
~john

[Etype R]

Droop can be built to sit lower, but have the same break over angle because the axles are able to drop when the belly gets high centered. Most droop setups are belly draggers.

[run2jeepn]

Originally Posted by KRAWLR4life

Everything your saying here is true... depending on the type of rock/incline, I agree, a spung setup does have its advantages, but it seems droop setup has MORE advantages, thats from my experience anyway. I think your wanting to know the anwser to this is awsome, it shows how trully pationate you are about our hobby and competition!
~john

What are the more advantages?

See around here we also have many different type of rocks and inclines. Capen, Cosmo, Disney. Are all complete different rocks.


I get into these things sometimes. I try to stay out of them. Just because I get worked up to much.