Proposal to Vendors for Injection Molding Group Buy

[FreqEsKinz]

Originally Posted by sudo

what i was trying to say with my post was that one guy with some time and a mill can produce the mold for the price of the blank aluminum, and after that getting the piece injected isn't too expensive. What if someone here with a CNC mill made the mold, then sent it off to get it shot? It would cheapen the process quite a bit. And I would be in for a few bucks.

I think we were both saying basically the same thing.

One of our many Cad/Solidworks gurus does the design (I nominate Harley0706 )

One of our many machinist gurus builds the mold/molds.

Then we're off and running.

As I said, I think I could get the molds done and the first shots for under $3K. That being said, if the cost is a bit more, it may be possible to spread the total amount over a few orders.

Maybe we could get some one to draw up a few items to get the interest peaking?

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by Freq E Tag

I think we were both saying basically the same thing.

One of our many Cad/Solidworks gurus does the design (I nominate Harley0706 )

One of our many machinist gurus builds the mold/molds.

Then we're off and running.

As I said, I think I could get the molds done and the first shots for under $3K. That being said, if the cost is a bit more, it may be possible to spread the total amount over a few orders.

Maybe we could get some one to draw up a few items to get the interest peaking?

3K? lets see that 15 hours at 200 per hour? even that sounds steep to me. LOL arent we talking about a part that should retail for around 1.00? so break even is 3000 units

[sudo]

sounds like quite a bit of time as well. One of the guys I know at the shop was making two compound skateboard wheels and from CAD to a finished set it was under 8 hours of work, if he cut the cad and milling out of the equation, it was only about 2 hours of molding.

I would see if I could get the shop owner to mold these, but his machine is a low capacity designed for single smaller parts. I don't think it has the pressure or the volume needed to mold a sprue. Could the molds be tested by having someone hand pour a test? Like how armature bronze is cast? Just to check the mold?

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by sudo

sounds like quite a bit of time as well. One of the guys I know at the shop was making two compound skateboard wheels and from CAD to a finished set it was under 8 hours of work, if he cut the cad and milling out of the equation, it was only about 2 hours of molding.

Thats kinda my thought. Id like to see a projected cost breakdown of where the expenses are. and who would own the molds?

[Mad4Rnr]

not to discount any talented rccrawler members but designing molded parts and designing a mold are two very different things, not to say is can't be done but there is alot to be considered:

molds are designed specifically per the injection molding machine that they are run on, you need the machine specs like tie bar opening, clamp pressure, barrel size, etc

another thing to think about is mold life, an aluminum mold won't last as long as a tool steel mold (thousands of cycles vs hundered of thousands to millions of cycles). a good compromise between mold cost and cycle life is a hybrid aluminum-steel mold

the placement of the part cavity in the mold is very crucial, you need to consider where mold parting line would be to get a "straight pull", avoid undecuts in the direction of mold opening so you don't need slides or "side actions", you must decide the size and locations of the gates and runners as well as locations for mold heaters

even desiging the parts isnt as easy as seems you need to consider ur wall thickess and design with consistant cross sections to that you avoid sinks mark, put draft on long pull sections so cores don't stick, and what about ejectors pins? man i could go on forever

sorry i will shut up now

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by Mad4Rnr

not to discount any talented rccrawler members but designing molded parts and designing a mold are two very different things, not to say is can't be done but there is alot to be considered:

molds are designed specifically per the injection molding machine that they are run on, you need the machine specs like tie bar opening, clamp pressure, barrel size, etc

another thing to think about is mold life, an aluminum mold won't last as long as a tool steel mold (thousands of cycles vs hundered of thousands to millions of cycles). a good compromise between mold cost and cycle life is a hybrid aluminum-steel mold

the placement of the part cavity in the mold is very crucial, you need to consider where mold parting line would be to get a "straight pull", avoid undecuts in the direction of mold opening so you don't need slides or "side actions", you must decide the size and locations of the gates and runners as well as locations for mold heaters

even desiging the parts isnt as easy as seems you need to consider ur wall thickess and design with consistant cross sections to that you avoid sinks mark, put draft on long pull sections so cores don't stick, and what about ejectors pins? man i could go on forever

sorry i will shut up now

my overall thought here is what is the total market? how many 1/10th scale gas cans will we be able to sell? how many highlift jacks? this is not an operation for a major type run unit but more a prototype small style machine.

This is not an infinate market yet, Im betting 300 gas cans will be the max sold per year

[FreqEsKinz]

Glad to see some guys stop in with some experience here.

Let me clarify, I am NOT an expert, just another idiot with an idea

My thoughts were a sprue with multiple items on it, or should I say several different items on it. That way we would be getting more bang for the buck, so to speak.

If you have (as an estimate) $3K in total cost

I sprue at $10=300pcs for break even.

I would guess 500 units wouldn't be out of the question over a 3-6 month period.

I agree that we are a small corner of the hobby still, but my thought was: "If someone made it, I'd want at least 3 of them!" so now we're down to 297... lol

As far as possession of the molds, they would be community property amongst the people who put up the cash, until such time as someone wanted to buy out the others.

Not really a need to worry as anyone who needed parts could simply order off the molds as needed. They would in reality never hit US shores unless being retired.

Thanks for your time and interest guys, I truly appreciate the discussion here.

Freq

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by Freq E Tag

Glad to see some guys stop in with some experience here.

Let me clarify, I am NOT an expert, just another idiot with an idea

My thoughts were a sprue with multiple items on it, or should I say several different items on it. That way we would be getting more bang for the buck, so to speak.

If you have (as an estimate) $3K in total cost

I sprue at $10=300pcs for break even.

I would guess 500 units wouldn't be out of the question over a 3-6 month period.



I agree that we are a small corner of the hobby still, but my thought was: "If someone made it, I'd want at least 3 of them!" so now we're down to 297... lol

Thanks for your time and interest guys, I truly appreciate the discussion here.

Freq

I would suggest that 500 per year would be more like it. so we make one mold with 10 items on the tree, a 2 part gas can, a high lift jack. shovel, axe, etc, if you designed the layout correctly even the runners could be part of the product like a roof rack

[Mad4Rnr]

Originally Posted by rockwerks

Thats kinda my thought. Id like to see a projected cost breakdown of where the expenses are. and who would own the molds?

if you went with protomold all you need for CAD is 3D models . for most of the parts listed in the first post I bet it would take at least 30-40 hrs

most of the parts on list won't fit on one spru (one mold) so I estimate 3 NC'd aluminum molds at $1500 - $2500 each, i bet the cycle life on these molds would be 5-10k pcs

protomold owns the molds so they charge a per piece price to cover them running the parts and material costs this is usually $1-5 each depending on part size

worst case with $7500 toolling and a sale price of $10 a spru you'd have to sell 750 sprus to get ur money back, not bad

submit a moldel below and they will quote in less than 24hrs, id do it but i only have machined parts on my hard drive

http://www.protomold.com/

OK so now my consulting bill will be in the mail, or maybe I go into business for my self (MadDogRC baby!)

[Mad4Rnr]

freq and rockwerks,

all our indepent estimates are very close and seem resaonable, i believe this is in reach of the average joe so vendor support may not even be required

i love this forum, where else can work and play mingle

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by Mad4Rnr

freq and rockwerks,

all our indepent estimates are very close and seem resaonable, i believe this is in reach of the average joe so vendor support may not even be required

i love this forum, where else can work and play mingle

LOL this is what free enterprise is all about

[Mad4Rnr]

the only down side is there is plenty of competition withl the wild willy sprus witch have a winch and jerry can and also many of the scale shops have hi lifts, shovels etc

some one should add up how much it would cost to buy one of each parts from the current sources so we can decide if its worth is to compete


^^^ man if i knew how to spell i would have never become and engineer

[dznutz]

Originally Posted by Mad4Rnr

some one should add up how much it would cost to buy one of each parts from the current sources so we can decide if its worth is to compete

This is what i've found so far:

RCP
Axe: 3.49
Shovels & fork set: 10.99

TCS
High Lift Jack: 29.95

ORCRC
Jerry Can (solid): 5.00

RPP
Scale Dash: 10.95
HPI Bumper Set: 8.50
Aluminum Light Buckets (2): 22.00

Total So far: 90.88

Even at $10 or a little more a parts tree with this proposal, there will be a large chunk taken away from the comp. I so support this.

[scrooloose]

Also a suggestion. Maybe set up a Paypal account for people that are willing to donate to the cause.

[FreqEsKinz]

Originally Posted by Mad4Rnr

i love this forum, where else can work and play mingle

Don't say the "W" word.... eek!

Originally Posted by rockwerks

LOL this is what free enterprise is all about

Free enterprise at its finest. I love it.

Originally Posted by dznutz

Even at $10 or a little more a parts tree with this proposal, there will be a large chunk taken away from the comp. I so support this.

Please keep in mind, its NOT my intention to take money away from the bigger vendors. I'm sure if they had access to cheaper items, so would we!

Originally Posted by scrooloose

Also a suggestion. Maybe set up a Paypal account for people that are willing to donate to the cause.

Not yet on the PayPal, but we may do something like that soon if needed.

[Mirage]

Originally Posted by rockwerks

Im amazed to see that only quality parts can be made by CNC work, the arts are lost in technology, ]

Elvan a friend of mine has been reading this and laughing his azz off, he did prototype work for aurora back in the day and molds where cast by hand. all those little HO slot car parts where made with molds made by hand.

I was going to say, I have seen lots of different parts and things molded on How it's Made on Discovery, and everything they start with seems to be done by hand to get the molds made. Some things are quite interesting, like how they make the little pins people wear on their shirts, etc.


I too think it would be awesome to see these parts molded in Styrene. There certainly is a long list of items I would like to see made, complete roof racks, light buckets for 5mm leds, coolers, jacks, fire
extinguishers, etc.... etc....

[dznutz]

Originally Posted by Freq E Tag

Please keep in mind, its NOT my intention to take money away from the bigger vendors. I'm sure if they had access to cheaper items, so would we!

So true... Maybe I was thinking way outside the box. I am hoping for the suppliers of the vendors to step-up and offer an cheaper solution. Kinda like how Walmart supports its customers. If that even makes sense. Okay back to my hole.

[Double J]

I also have a few connections that can help out.
I have some connections to factories in China and can get in on shipping crates to lower that cost as well. All they need is the CAD files and 1/4 to 1/2 the money up front. I'd be more geared towards axles and that sort of thing than the smaller items like jerry cans.

The way I figure the mold cost for smaller parts would run us around $2-5K total for multiple parts and then you looking at ordering for around $4-8 per unit shipped, in quantaties of 1000. Spred out 300 unites per vendor for retail. But this is all based on past experiances and could be different depending on the parts wanted and current price of materials.

[STANG KILLA SS]

scale cases for TLT axles> gas cans

[dznutz]

amen stang