Proposal to Vendors for Injection Molding Group Buy

[FreqEsKinz]

Originally Posted by STANG KILLA SS

scale cases for TLT axles> gas cans

You betcha. Dana's.

There is a metric TON of stuff that would be cool to have.

I'm sure we'll get something worked out on this, again, I'd love for someone from RCP and TheCrawlerStore to chime in here.

[Rockpiledriver]

My 2 cents.

Injection molds are very expensive. They can run anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 for a single mold, when talking rc parts. There needs to be a large interest and need from the consumer for the investment to at least break even for the vendor or manufacturer. At this point in time, I personally don't see enough interest in scale accessories to make a dent in the initial investment costs, at least from rccrawler sales alone. The manufacturer of these parts would need to have dealer accounts with 100's of hobby stores and collectable shops in order to make the sales.

Another problem is we and other vendors currently buy chassis cases and scale accessories from distributors for very low costs. Most pieces run anywhere from $1.50 to $3.50 with some specialty item running a little more. It's hard to compete with those who are currently mass producing these accessories and who are already supplying them to many shops around the world.

I don't think you need to worry about taking business from vendors here. We really don't sell a bunch of scale stuff compared to the other functional rc crawling parts and accessories. We don't really make any money on the scale accessories and merely have them on the site as a loss leader to bring people in and possibly buy other items.

Let me know if you disagree or agree with anything above. I am open to suggestions on how to make this work and will help out if possible.
Thanks,
John

[Breaker 1-9]

So everyones down with it but honestly for some plastic little things like jerry cans, shovels, etc etc??? you can't be serious or maybe you are. Anywho why not just use the plastic shovels and little things from Tamiya Tank part trees. As far jerry cans and many many other things you've listed well I have seen many many in the right scale for the builds around here. These things are things thats already out there so why should such an investment be made for those things when it's already on the market? I'm down with this idea but not for anything you listed. I was actually thinking this would be like for some type of body everyone wanted or some sort. NOT those little things.

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by RCP

My 2 cents.

Injection molds are very expensive. They can run anywhere from $5,000 to $15,000 for a single mold, when talking rc parts. There needs to be a large interest and need from the consumer for the investment to at least break even for the vendor or manufacturer. At this point in time, I personally don't see enough interest in scale accessories to make a dent in the initial investment costs, at least from rccrawler sales alone. The manufacturer of these parts would need to have dealer accounts with 100's of hobby stores and collectable shops in order to make the sales.

Another problem is we and other vendors currently buy chassis cases and scale accessories from distributors for very low costs. Most pieces run anywhere from $1.50 to $3.50 with some specialty item running a little more. It's hard to compete with those who are currently mass producing these accessories and who are already supplying them to many shops around the world.

I don't think you need to worry about taking business from vendors here. We really don't sell a bunch of scale stuff compared to the other functional rc crawling parts and accessories. We don't really make any money on the scale accessories and merely have them on the site as a loss leader to bring people in and possibly buy other items.

Let me know if you disagree or agree with anything above. I am open to suggestions on how to make this work and will help out if possible.
Thanks,
John

This is exactly what Ive been trying to say, the recapture on investment for a product like this is maybe 4 to 5 years if lucky, not 6 months. The RC scale market is finite, a very small portion of the business and frankly I cant see ever selling enough units to pay for the molds. The only way this will fly is if you know someone who will produce the molds for next to nothing.

[Twist]

"Next to nothing" and "mold makers" does not usually go together

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by Twist

"Next to nothing" and "mold makers" does not usually go together

THere in lies the problem my friend............

[FreqEsKinz]

I'm sure you guys know I personally am not asking for "something for nothing"

That being said, I still think this could be done if the right parts were included.

Maybe as a show of support we could do a poll and see the response?

Just a thought.....

[RPP Hobby]

Originally Posted by Freq E Tag

I'm sure you guys know I personally am not asking for "something for nothing"

That being said, I still think this could be done if the right parts were included.

Maybe as a show of support we could do a poll and see the response?

Just a thought.....

I am still down to support it I will not give a green or red light until I see some realistic figures.

[rockwerks]

Originally Posted by Rpp Hobby

I am still down to support it I will not give a green or red light until I see some realistic figures.

X20! so guys someone crunch some REAL numbers and see what can be done. Do some market analysis go to the forums and explain what you want to do and if they would buy parts. Id suggest polls here, scale, and where every you can to get a good cross section run the polls for a week and lets see what kind of numbers of products sold we can get.

Im betting the numbers will be far less than what you envisioned.

figure 10 parts per tree

what is a legit cost of a mold?
molding materials?
minimum order?
cost per item?
market share of parts made?
etc.

[JasonInAugusta]

Originally Posted by Double J

I also have a few connections that can help out.
I have some connections to factories in China and can get in on shipping crates to lower that cost as well. All they need is the CAD files and 1/4 to 1/2 the money up front. I'd be more geared towards axles and that sort of thing than the smaller items like jerry cans.

You're getting into a mess here.

I worked injection molding for years, getting a GOOD set of axle cases in a good material with bearing pockets and all isn't as easy as you may think.

Everyone seems to be focused on the cost of the mold, but what about materials and such?

If it costs $1 to make each sprue...fine.

That mold still needs to be paid for...as does labor to operate the machine. Then there's shipping.

It could take a looong time to recoup the cost of the mold.

[binaryterror]

I was in purchasing less 3 months ago for a large Tier 1 automotive supply company that specialized in molding and assembly of Class A surfaces (dashboard finished surfaces and registers mainly).

Material costs for a styrene are about $0.50 a pound, PolyPro about $0.99, and ABS and Acetals were about $1.50. This wass my price, we annually buy more resin than you can imagine, expect single crazy idea runs like these at 3 times that cost. Colorants are about $10 per pound, so either run natural or generic re-constituted blacks to save money.

Molds, even our molds were crazy high, most hitting over $30,000, even the ones from China.

The thought of us building a CAD part sure, us building a Mold file? Do you guys even have mold training to contemplate how to build with drafts, inlets, gates, sprues, vents, prevention of die lock, hell does anyone here know what the melting temp of materials are, do you know which material melt flow you will need for which parts based on design? Do you know how to figure out how much tonnage the molding press needs to be?

Now you want a local machinist to build a tight tolerance mold on tiny parts in a large mold plate? You want their mold to work in any standard molding machine, or do you have one in mind, its not all 1 standard. Now you have water cooling in the molds to change properties and releases.

Unless you can sell 5000+ shots from the mold, I wouldn't even think this to be an option, unless of course you owned a molding machine. The machines alone cost $400,000 for a solid performing unit.

[Thorsteenster]

here ya go, start with this.
http://www.alumilite.com/

[Mad4Rnr]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

I was in purchasing less 3 months ago for a large Tier 1 automotive supply company that specialized in molding and assembly of Class A surfaces (dashboard finished surfaces and registers mainly).

Material costs for a styrene are about $0.50 a pound, PolyPro about $0.99, and ABS and Acetals were about $1.50. This wass my price, we annually buy more resin than you can imagine, expect single crazy idea runs like these at 3 times that cost. Colorants are about $10 per pound, so either run natural or generic re-constituted blacks to save money.

Molds, even our molds were crazy high, most hitting over $30,000, even the ones from China.

The thought of us building a CAD part sure, us building a Mold file? Do you guys even have mold training to contemplate how to build with drafts, inlets, gates, sprues, vents, prevention of die lock, hell does anyone here know what the melting temp of materials are, do you know which material melt flow you will need for which parts based on design? Do you know how to figure out how much tonnage the molding press needs to be?

Now you want a local machinist to build a tight tolerance mold on tiny parts in a large mold plate? You want their mold to work in any standard molding machine, or do you have one in mind, its not all 1 standard. Now you have water cooling in the molds to change properties and releases.

Unless you can sell 5000+ shots from the mold, I wouldn't even think this to be an option, unless of course you owned a molding machine. The machines alone cost $400,000 for a solid performing unit.

^church!

Originally Posted by thorsteenster

here ya go, start with this.
http://www.alumilite.com/

^thor, casting and injection mold, two totaly differnt things man

[77chevy4x4]

so where are we standing whose chairman ? where do the payments go? whats the first thing in the mold process. and who makes these dies or castings? what info are you looking for ? product molding or ? leave me a message its time for a new buiness veture

[FreqEsKinz]

I am in the process of working with someone to design some preliminary parts in 3D. Although, anyone else with SolidWorks experience PLEASE speak up, all help is appreciated.

Once the items are designed, we'll need positives made in stainless (If I remember right). These will be used to thermo form the molds.

Once I have the positives in hand, I will send them to China to have our supplier quote the job. They are running a state-of-the-art facility and do top notch, full-service work.

Once we have a quote, that will determine cost/roi/terms etc.

I figure this is the best way to find hard numbers. I know this will require some effort on our end to make the parts but it will be the most exact form of quote.

Preliminary numbers still set at about 4K for the first shot (Yes its a discount, yes its cheap. We do 500K plus pieces a year so they like us)

So who can offer up some CNC goodness?

[Twist]

And what kind of molding is this where you need a stainless sample? Are we talking come kind of casting?

[dezfan]

Originally Posted by Freq E Tag

I am in the process of working with someone to design some preliminary parts in 3D. Although, anyone else with SolidWorks experience PLEASE speak up, all help is appreciated.

Once the items are designed, we'll need positives made in stainless (If I remember right). These will be used to thermo form the molds.

Once I have the positives in hand, I will send them to China to have our supplier quote the job. They are running a state-of-the-art facility and do top notch, full-service work.

Once we have a quote, that will determine cost/roi/terms etc.

I figure this is the best way to find hard numbers. I know this will require some effort on our end to make the parts but it will be the most exact form of quote.

Preliminary numbers still set at about 4K for the first shot (Yes its a discount, yes its cheap. We do 500K plus pieces a year so they like us)

So who can offer up some CNC goodness?

That's what I like about these "Show Me" state boys!

Give em hell Neil!

[Thorsteenster]

Originally Posted by Mad4Rnr

^thor, casting and injection mold, two totaly differnt things man

Yes, I realize this, but both can produce quality looking parts. When you look at and compare the costs, which do you think is more likely?

[FreqEsKinz]

I should probably shut up and get my info from the owners of our company. They are the experts.

They were discussing my idea and said for the highest accuracy that they make the molds from a positive, some kind of reverse cast sort of procedure. So I regurgitated that in my post, albeit with some inaccuracy I'm sure.

I'll get specifics when needed.

Meanwhile, the designs are being discussed....

Originally Posted by Twist

And what kind of molding is this where you need a stainless sample? Are we talking come kind of casting?

[run2jeepn]

I can probley get the parts made in stainless... Or I'm Sure RC4wd would be able to also.