Transformation of E Maxx to 1/5 scale Rally Drift and Jump 4WD

[scootertrash]

Go slow if That seem's to fit ya, just take your time and thinking it thou... And keep ya eye's open for other Idea's that you may see, hear about & come across as this move's ahead ... and it about done too, So just be a lil' picky on the rim's & tire's ... And I'm, sure you'll find um and have that Look you've been looking for too.... TTyl... Scoot'er....

[NeXt559]

great start to a unque build
cant wait to see it completed
just read through ur scaler super build
you have definatly have some amazing rc kung fu!

[toy4crawlin]

Originally Posted by scootertrash

Go slow if That seem's to fit ya, just take your time and thinking it thou... And keep ya eye's open for other Idea's that you may see, hear about & come across as this move's ahead ... and it about done too, So just be a lil' picky on the rim's & tire's ... And I'm, sure you'll find um and have that Look you've been looking for too.... TTyl... Scoot'er....

Wow thank you very much
You are right and that's my nature.
I have many changes in design already, like a Sideways Tranny which means tossing out the upper support square rails I spent so much time on already, and the steering needs more radius, and the sway bar I installed last night the support bars are to narrow but there no other place to mount them or straight up the chassis because the tie rods in the way.
The front shock tower that I made is to short also.
I am normally picky so it's hard to let these things go as I just want to drive it

Originally Posted by NeXt559

great start to a unque build
cant wait to see it completed
just read through ur scaler super build
you have definatly have some amazing rc kung fu!

LOL Thank you NeXt559
I am very happy with it and love the scale look not to mention how well it climbs and the tunes rock !
I was swifting through rc's and parts found my Rocket Truck using 2 D size rocket engines, that thing was an Awesome sight down the street. Wish I had a picture. pretty simple build I might put it back together for the heck of it :-P

[toy4crawlin]

Spent some time last night

Made a Front sway bar
Aluminum tube, threaded for 4-40 screws on the ends, Delrin Holder tabs. issue is the support tabs are not spread apart enough to provide the most anti sway.
wanted to use steel tube but the hole to big to thread screws in, so I may solder them in.

Tore apart tranny
It's in pretty good condition
Ordered a Steel Idler gear
Remove 1st gear idler and drive gear- reduce weight
Locked 2nd gear in
need some shims to compensate for the removed gears

fyi the gears closets to the motor plate is 2nd gear.

[toy4crawlin]

These Formula 1 , Champ car Suspension setups are Awesome .I always was intrigued with the Revo suspension I was thinking of going this route and doing a sway bar would be much easier.
INteresting that other rc are not doing it

[Duuuuuuuude]

Here's a tip on the sway bars...what you have got going on there is not going to work very well. The idea behind a sway bar is to prevent body roll without overly effecting the suspension movement. Yours is so big and so rigid that you've effectively tied both sides of the suspension together, forcing one to do the exact same thing as the other. You need to be able to transmit that force without limiting each sides independent movement. The bar needs to be stiff enough to transmit the force, but springy enough to let each wheel to its own thing. Also make sure that the bar is free to rotate in the chassis mounts. I can't really tell if they do in your pics, so I thought I'd mention it.

The short version is that your current setup will eventually bind, bend, or break. Also probably handle like poo.

Go to your local hardware store and grab some music wire. Its usually found near or in the "K&S Metal" bin. This is springy steel so smaller is good. Go no bigger than 1/8". The rest of the sway bar setup looks great, so reuse it.

BTW: I've seen ebay kits that use 1/4" aluminum rod and they flat out suck. The first time my buddy's TMaxx got airborn he bent the bar and broke one of his brand new RPM arms.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Just had another thought. Depending on the surfaces you plan to run on, you may not need sway bars. If its going to be pretty smooth, just throw on some really stiff springs. Otherwise, soft springs and bars will do ya fine.

[slobin3d]

use a solid piece of piano wire or a sway bar from a 1/8 buggy or truggy, and instead of tapping them and using screws use wheel collars on either side of your rod ends to hold it in place, and if you want to tweek the stiffnes move them in or out

[toy4crawlin]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Here's a tip on the sway bars...what you have got going on there is not going to work very well. The idea behind a sway bar is to prevent body roll without overly effecting the suspension movement. Yours is so big and so rigid that you've effectively tied both sides of the suspension together, forcing one to do the exact same thing as the other. You need to be able to transmit that force without limiting each sides independent movement. The bar needs to be stiff enough to transmit the force, but springy enough to let each wheel to its own thing. Also make sure that the bar is free to rotate in the chassis mounts. I can't really tell if they do in your pics, so I thought I'd mention it.

The short version is that your current setup will eventually bind, bend, or break. Also probably handle like poo.

Go to your local hardware store and grab some music wire. Its usually found near or in the "K&S Metal" bin. This is springy steel so smaller is good. Go no bigger than 1/8". The rest of the sway bar setup looks great, so reuse it.

BTW: I've seen ebay kits that use 1/4" aluminum rod and they flat out suck. The first time my buddy's TMaxx got airborn he bent the bar and broke one of his brand new RPM arms.

Thanks, I understand what you are saying. but it is springy and do not make the other side move. But I will look for spring wire.

Originally Posted by slobin3d

use a solid piece of piano wire or a sway bar from a 1/8 buggy or truggy, and instead of tapping them and using screws use wheel collars on either side of your rod ends to hold it in place, and if you want to tweek the stiffnes move them in or out

Thank you 3d
But the screws I am using are going through rod ends so it can move.
Isn't that the way it should be
I do not follow what you are saying about wheel collars and move what and how in or out

Note that the picture above of the Champ car Suspension the sway bar is directly hard connected, this is to make the oposite side lower itself to reduce body roll. So in some cars it limited.
Why should it be springy in this setup
Thank you
also in this pic below

[Duuuuuuuude]

There is more to the champ cars sway control than just a single pivot point. If you look closely you'll see that the part that the bars attach to will also move back and forth, not just rotate side to side. The Revo assembly is similar (as you pointed out), and it too allows back-and-forth motion.

Ok, I had a big long explanation going on, and I just deleted it all. Let me try to distill it for you...lol...though it still ended up being kinda long...

Your ultimate goal is to lessen body roll and keep all the tires as planted as possible as much as possible.

You get rid of body roll with either really stiff springs, a sway bar, or by moving your shocks/springs as far out as possible, both top and bottom. Or a combination of those three. If you completely eliminate body roll you will have a very rough handling rig.

Springs ~ Really soft (think old Cadillac) makes for a smooth ride but allows body roll, transfer of weight (not always a bad thing), and changes several other things that can screw you up. The plus side is that it handles bumps and dips well. Really hard (think race car) makes for a level, predictable ride on smooth surfaces. The down side is that bumps and dips can easily upset the car, bouncing it off the road.

Sway Bar ~ Essentially a springy link between the chassis and suspension. Force from one wheel is transfered to the other in an attempt to keep the vehicle level. Too soft and the body rolls, shifting COG and suspension geometry. Too hard and every little thing that happens to one wheel will happen to the other. Thats bad.

Shock/Spring placement ~ If you've ever goofed with the shocks on your rc, you know that moving them inboard will soften the springs and lenthen your travel. Moving them outboard will stiffen the springs and shorten your travel. To combat roll effectively, they need to be as far out and as straight up/down as possible. This puts the spring force further away from the roll center and lessens their effectiveness as a pivot point for the chassis to roll on.

Take a close look at the real life cars you are trying to emulate with your scale reproduction. Rally cars have body roll when they are off road. They have to because of the rough terrain they run on. They need to keep independent suspension travel to keep the wheels down and maintain traction. Indy cars and Champ cars run on smooth asphalt or concrete. They don't need lots of suspension. And, because of thier speed they have downforce to help keep them planted. In fact, they are so stiff that picking up one wheel only a few inches off of the ground will cause another to lose contact when the car is not moving. I've seen this first hand, and nearly crapped my pants when it was pointed out to me.

[toy4crawlin]

Basically Yep You got it Duuuude
I did notice the champ car sway bar also moves forward n back on the wall bracket, so I made the mistake in saying it was hard connected.

The big challenge here is I want the car to do Suspension opposites. Cant have a Drift car and a Rally offroad car in the same setup. I realize that. But I was hoping that with just an easy screw adjustment or a quick removal of sway bar and it would be ready for offroad. Same is looking for the tires.

My Front aluminum sway is what I call 50% it does not lift the other wheel but it also does not allow the other to lift as the other goes down.

So what you saying below what it comes down to is getting the correct sway bar tension for the cars weight and COG and springs.
I'll just have to guess for initial setup and drive it and make adjustments as needed.
Sound right to you ?

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

There is more to the champ cars sway control than just a single pivot point. If you look closely you'll see that the part that the bars attach to will also move back and forth, not just rotate side to side. The Revo assembly is similar (as you pointed out), and it too allows back-and-forth motion.

Ok, I had a big long explanation going on, and I just deleted it all. Let me try to distill it for you...lol...though it still ended up being kinda long...

Your ultimate goal is to lessen body roll and keep all the tires as planted as possible as much as possible.

You get rid of body roll with either really stiff springs, a sway bar, or by moving your shocks/springs as far out as possible, both top and bottom. Or a combination of those three. If you completely eliminate body roll you will have a very rough handling rig.

Springs ~ Really soft (think old Cadillac) makes for a smooth ride but allows body roll, transfer of weight (not always a bad thing), and changes several other things that can screw you up. The plus side is that it handles bumps and dips well. Really hard (think race car) makes for a level, predictable ride on smooth surfaces. The down side is that bumps and dips can easily upset the car, bouncing it off the road.

Sway Bar ~ Essentially a springy link between the chassis and suspension. Force from one wheel is transfered to the other in an attempt to keep the vehicle level. Too soft and the body rolls, shifting COG and suspension geometry. Too hard and every little thing that happens to one wheel will happen to the other. Thats bad.

Shock/Spring placement ~ If you've ever goofed with the shocks on your rc, you know that moving them inboard will soften the springs and lenthen your travel. Moving them outboard will stiffen the springs and shorten your travel. To combat roll effectively, they need to be as far out and as straight up/down as possible. This puts the spring force further away from the roll center and lessens their effectiveness as a pivot point for the chassis to roll on.

Take a close look at the real life cars you are trying to emulate with your scale reproduction. Rally cars have body roll when they are off road. They have to because of the rough terrain they run on. They need to keep independent suspension travel to keep the wheels down and maintain traction. Indy cars and Champ cars run on smooth asphalt or concrete. They don't need lots of suspension. And, because of thier speed they have downforce to help keep them planted. In fact, they are so stiff that picking up one wheel only a few inches off of the ground will cause another to lose contact when the car is not moving. I've seen this first hand, and nearly crapped my pants when it was pointed out to me.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by toy4crawlin

The big challenge here is I want the car to do Suspension opposites. Cant have a Drift car and a Rally offroad car in the same setup. I realize that. But I was hoping that with just an easy screw adjustment or a quick removal of sway bar and it would be ready for offroad. Same is looking for the tires.

You still can. Drop the ride height, stiffen the suspension, add the sway bar for drifting. Raise the ride height, loosen the suspension, ditch the sway bar for rally. Though, you could whip up a softer sway bar for the offroad stuff. As long as its springy and has some give to it, it'll work just fine.

Originally Posted by toy4crawlin

My Front aluminum sway is what I call 50% it does not lift the other wheel but it also does not allow the other to lift as the other goes down.

Still, aluminum is not the material you want here. Go with music wire.

Originally Posted by toy4crawlin

I'll just have to guess for initial setup and drive it and make adjustments as needed.
Sound right to you ?

Pretty much, yeah. Suspension setup is a true artform. There is so much math involved that it boggles the mind of us mere mortals. Even for all that I have read, studied, and experimented with, I still barely manage to fumble along untill I find something that works, especially when working from scratch.

I'd also like to change something I said about shock placement. You still want them as far outboard as possible, but they need to lean inwards a bit.

[jeepcreep]

Huh?

All I understood was swaybar, and suspension? I know what works as far as a setup for rc cars and trucks, but I could never explain it in such detial.


Just reread the article and have a better understanding of all this. I also found out that I missed a paragraph and a few criticle sentances.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by jeepcreep

Huh?

All I understood was swaybar, and suspension? I know what works as far as a setup for rc cars and trucks, but I could never explain it in such detial.


Just reread the article and have a better understanding of all this. I also found out that I missed a paragraph and a few criticle sentances.

Team Associated has an awesome chassis tuning guide on thier website. And, there is a fairly basic but still good guide in thier owners manuals. The website references an incredibly thick suspension bible for 1:1 race cars. I think its around 800 pages or so. I haven't read it, my head would probably explode as soon as I cracked the cover.

[Rudukai13]

Good news is, with the set up you have you can go with two extremes-one for drifting and one for rally. If you get stiffer springs and a stiffer swaybar, you can keep it planted well on all four tires while going around the corners on smooth concrete. Then a simple change of shocks (maybe you could even put some longer shocks on it for more travel) and a softer sway bar and you have the independent movement/weight transfer to handle the rough roads and some jumps that you may not land perfectly every time.

[toy4crawlin]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Team Associated has an awesome chassis tuning guide on thier website. And, there is a fairly basic but still good guide in thier owners manuals. The website references an incredibly thick suspension bible for 1:1 race cars. I think its around 800 pages or so. I haven't read it, my head would probably explode as soon as I cracked the cover.

Cool I'll look it up. I thought I had a book on that stuff but it turns out it's Race Car Aerodynamics I bought for when I was trying to make my luge more aerodynamic and it actually limits drafting !
Anyway thanks, and I'll try to find the spring wire.

Originally Posted by Rudukai13

Good news is, with the set up you have you can go with two extremes-one for drifting and one for rally. If you get stiffer springs and a stiffer swaybar, you can keep it planted well on all four tires while going around the corners on smooth concrete. Then a simple change of shocks (maybe you could even put some longer shocks on it for more travel) and a softer sway bar and you have the independent movement/weight transfer to handle the rough roads and some jumps that you may not land perfectly every time.

YEa I think stiff springs will work for street and jumping, and if doing bumpy terrain I can swap in softer springs and angle the shocks for more travel.
Cant wait to see this Airborn !

Speaking of air here'e a crazy shot for you Guys
me at 50mph launching 50 feet 4 feet off the ground in San Francisco

[Duuuuuuuude]

Uhhhh, are my eyes decieving me or is there actually some sort of ramp there....?



Oh, and how bad did your ass hurt afterwards? Not that I care about your ass...I was just wondering...

[toy4crawlin]

You got man a ramp but more insanely it's a very steep street with a sudden level intersection with a 6" ramp before the steep down hill street again !

You should see some of the bad spills and huge Air
speeds were between 50to 60 and up to 80 feet of air, It was Awesome !!!:-P
my back and ass were fine, cant say the same for many others though, Canada landed SideWays ! and rolled
The event was put on for 4 years last race was 2002

http://broadbandsports.com/node/955&loc=mostpop
http://www.photo-freelancer.com/even.../index002.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object...&o=1&type=news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a8In0b_ky8

[racer22]

guy here did something similar here

http://ultimatetraxxas.com/projects/rallye-maxx/

maybe you can find something useful in there

[toy4crawlin]

Originally Posted by racer22

guy here did something similar here

http://ultimatetraxxas.com/projects/rallye-maxx/

maybe you can find something useful in there

Dude that's Awesome thank you for posting that I'll check it out


EDIT unfortunately it does list any useful info like parts or motors, gears. looks cool though