Gen 8/Axe Steering/Suspension flaws, some solutions.

[RockCrawlingKid]

Originally Posted by Flamnpede1

I'm sorry to say but the club5 relocation and links are not designed properly. I bought the whole setup and tried many different combinations of above the knuckle below the knuckle etc. and it all ended with me sending the entire setup back because it was so bad. The link that ties the knuckles together sticks so far out I felt is was going to be a hanging point and the way it flops up and down just drove me crazy. I also ordered the suspension links and after the issues with the steering setup I didn't even bother installing them and just sent them back.

Things you did right....SSD Lower link mounts, and the low profile servo horn.

I currently have somewhere around 60 miles on the truck and other then those two items above I really haven't changed much for the steering / suspension geometry. It crawls, it trails and does pretty much everything I could ask for. So for me I'm not going to waste money or time redesigning the suspension because it doesn't match a 1:1 truck exactly or might be a few mm's off during suspension travel. All I can say is it works and people might be overthinking things a bit.

I’ve heard mixed reviews. Some really like it. I figured I would try it. Honestly though the steering really bothers me I hope the links tightens up the steering as mine is super loose now running it for a couple weeks everyday till my 5000mah 2s runs low.

I can say that my low profile servo arm showed up this morning. I threw it on quickly while in a ms teams call haha. And with the tie rod mounted below the knuckle the truck had tons of bump steer. I replaced the tie rod to the top not expecting much change. But wow the arm actually made a difference. Still not happy with how loose my steering is but I hope the club5 works for me. Won’t know till I try haha.


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[ferp420]

Originally Posted by Flamnpede1

I'm sorry to say but the club5 relocation and links are not designed properly.

i argree the club 5 isent designed properly

the servo can be moved forward and the servo horn turned 180 and its a realy nice set up if your panhard bar is braced properly on both sides it will take most of the force during a heavy impact so theres never alot of force on the servo ears so the servo only needs 2 screws to mount it that and it sits tight to the front crossmeber for alittle extra suport

also its alot stronger because when you do hit the servo horn on a rock your hiting the blunt side not the long side with lots of leverage

[tuxstang]

thats a great video it exsplains the panhard bar set up vary well but what it dosent include in the video is how it relates to the steering
to point out a few things in determining the langth of the panhard bar that they dident go in to the panhard bar mounts upper.and lower are the same distance from the center line of the axle so the mount on the axle is fixed we need a panhard mount thats is the same distance from center as the lower mount thats outside the frame and it needs to drop down aswell so out and down so to make that posable on the gen8 you have to move the panhard bar forward of the shocks that also allows you to brace the back side of lower panhard bar mount off to the upper link mount on top the pumpkin making for a extremely strong lower panhard bar mount add ssd lower link mounts and it bulletproof

theres no way to stop the axle from swinging especialy with a big lift but under normal driving you can make it unoticeable under full flex it dosent matter anyway

A quick mod would be a new passenger-side link mount (aluminum should be beefy enough) with the Panhard pivot point closer to the pumpkin, and of course a shorter Panhard link. They were not that much wrong, as is the lower pivot is just about 4mm too outside, should they have made it vertical instead of inclined, they would have been pretty close.

However being that the pivot are nevel level at ride height, the axle will always travel on the lower portion of the Panhard arc, so always shifting toward the same side of the chassis, and the only way to reduce the shifting amplitude is to reduce the vertical travel of the axle, so using shorter shocks.

[ferp420]

Originally Posted by tuxstang

A quick mod would be a new passenger-side link mount (aluminum should be beefy enough) with the Panhard pivot point closer to the pumpkin, and of course a shorter Panhard link. They were not that much wrong, as is the lower pivot is just about 4mm too outside, should they have made it vertical instead of inclined, they would have been pretty close.

However being that the pivot are nevel level at ride height, the axle will always travel on the lower portion of the Panhard arc, so always shifting toward the same side of the chassis, and the only way to reduce the shifting amplitude is to reduce the vertical travel of the axle, so using shorter shocks.

if it was only about the panhard bar than ya you could do that but remeber theres a stering link involved here too and its mounting points aswell



a new panhard bar mount on the chassie side that mounts the panhard bar lower moves the pivits closer to leval would help limit the side by side movement



heres a pic with the gen8 at ride hight under full comprestion the parhard mount on th3 chassie is lower than the axle side just bearly notice the upper link mount is mounted lower than stock its still a bit to high though but still lower and its mounted outside the frame rails so a longer panhard bar could be used to closer match the sterring link lenght the panhard bar is also located in front of the axle not behind it

[tuxstang]

Originally Posted by ferp420

if it was only about the panhard bar than ya you could do that but remeber theres a stering link involved here too and its mounting points aswell

One problem at a time. You solve the Panhard issue, then you deal with the steering if necessary.

Originally Posted by ferp420

a new panhard bar mount on the chassie side that mounts the panhard bar lower moves the pivits closer to leval would help limit the side by side movement

heres a pic with the gen8 at ride hight under full comprestion the parhard mount on th3 chassie is lower than the axle side just bearly notice the upper link mount is mounted lower than stock its still a bit to high though but still lower and its mounted outside the frame rails so a longer panhard bar could be used to closer match the sterring link lenght the panhard bar is also located in front of the axle not behind it

If you lower the chassis side mount so it's level at full compression, you solve nothing, the axle will still be on the lower portion of the arc on its full travel.
If you lower the chassis side mount so it's level at ride height, the full compression will be limited to ... about 5mm ... that's when it will hit the axle.
If you extend the chassis side mount further outside of the chassis instead of moving the lower pivot as I proposed, then you can move the lower pivot higher, way higher so it's level with the chassis pivot at ride height ... but then you'll have to deal with a Panhard rod that will have to clear both the frame and the axle under full compression ... and the mount will have to be very beefy given its height.

With the kind of vertical travel we deal with, there's no way we can achieve a correct Panhard geometry with the pivots above the axle, we need to clear the axle, so install the pivots before or after the axle ... but then you have to deal with interferences with respectively the links or the steering ... and do that in such a way that the chassis-side pivot will never be below the axle under full compression.

[M1tch]

I went the opposite way of OP's ideas and made my own panhard mount up and used spacers to raise the drag link so it was parallel with the steering link.

The idea of lengthening the panhard rod was that a longer radius would have less arc in it's travel. (simple geometry that).

I made up the mount using a piece of 4mm aluminium and a panhard mount off a spare Ascender front shock tower.

There is still side to side movement, but with the amount of travel it is never going to be zero.

A panhard bar would work much better on a short travel suspension such as a road or track car, not an off roader.

Idealy the panhard should be parallel to the axle at mid travel, but there isn't enough room on a 1/10 truck to fit all that in, although it might be if

the suspension and steering were designed from the axle up, not just hung off a chassis

Final setup looks like this. Very little bump steer, and some side to side, but its way better than the OG.

[ferp420]

Originally Posted by M1tch

I went the opposite way of OP's ideas and made my own panhard mount up and used spacers to raise the drag link so it was parallel with the steering link.

The idea of lengthening the panhard rod was that a longer radius would have less arc in it's travel. (simple geometry that).

I made up the mount using a piece of 4mm aluminium and a panhard mount off a spare Ascender front shock tower.

There is still side to side movement, but with the amount of travel it is never going to be zero.

A panhard bar would work much better on a short travel suspension such as a road or track car, not an off roader.

Idealy the panhard should be parallel to the axle at mid travel, but there isn't enough room on a 1/10 truck to fit all that in, although it might be if

the suspension and steering were designed from the axle up, not just hung off a chassis

Final setup looks like this. Very little bump steer, and some side to side, but its way better than the OG.

your new panhard mount was the best of the bunch for sure i was going to point the op twards that thread but i dont think i got that far yet besides i dought hes gona go back that far and see what we did sooo long ago lol
i would not use the stock steering links though that entire set up is vary week and and that spacer puts alot more leverage on the steering arm

[M1tch]

Thanks Ferp. I haven't had much time to drive it except for a few 10 minute runs locally. If anything does break when I get out for longer thenI will sort out. I might get the SSD aluminium knuckles if they are stiffer. Apart from that just drive it until something breaks or doesn't.

[bgredjeep]

Originally Posted by M1tch

I went the opposite way of OP's ideas and made my own panhard mount up and used spacers to raise the drag link so it was parallel with the steering link.

The idea of lengthening the panhard rod was that a longer radius would have less arc in it's travel. (simple geometry that).

Finally some good logic and a nice execution.

I don't have a gen8 so I wasn't going to comment, but there has been some silly stuff posted in here. Any statement about shortening the panhard somehow reducing lateral axle movement is simply false. Simple geometry as stated above.

[M1tch]

Yeah. As I said, the panhard in my opinion isn't really the best setup for long travel. 4 link would be better, but also to remove bump steer completely the servo would need to be axle mounted. However because of the low speed of crawling it doesn't matter too much.


Also talking scale, how many 1:1 trucks have 40 or 50mm diameter panhards with 30mm bolts? There is less room to play around with steering and suspension geometry on a 1:10

[Timmahh]

Originally Posted by ferp420

whens the last time you jacked up a jeep cheroke or any rig with a 3 link

that front axle moves atleast 6"as it cycles though its suspention traval so i would say almost every jeep owner is ok with the axle shifting side to to side as it moves though its range of suspention traval cause there are alot of heeps out there and people seem to realy like them

Again you are missing the point. I never said the axle shouldn't move laterally with a pan hard setup. What I particularly pointed out in my op is how ****ing terrible the Gen 8 pan hard setup is. It moves, ALL ONE DIRECTION through the entire ****ing suspension travel. HELLO? BEULLER BEULLER?

The pan hard should ARC, with the 1/2 travel mark being the outer most part of the arc. Not the Bottom or top of it as clearly detailed in the video posted. DERP.

Interesting side note, that same video was in my youboob feed 3 days ago. lmao

Perhaps try some reading 101, and stop assuming what people are saying, and read what they actually say? Sorry if I'm a dick but I do play well with arrogance assholes who think they know something. lmao

Now back to the issue at hand. As has been discussed in my absence, there are solutions to make it Properly Function as a pan hard setup should.

BTW, it wouldn't matter if I was under a Jeep, or a specific rock rig last week or 40 ****ing years ago. Why You say? MECHANICAL REASONING has not changed one iota since. lmao There is always a trade off involved. The trick is to minimise the negative tradeoffs.

[Timmahh]

We're not talking about Astro-physics here, which changes every time a new mathematical equation is done, or when new sources of funding become available. Its Mechaincal Engineering.


I apologize if I come off as an asshole.
But such is life.

LOLOLOLOLOL

[Timmahh]

Originally Posted by tuxstang

A quick mod would be a new passenger-side link mount (aluminum should be beefy enough) with the Panhard pivot point closer to the pumpkin, and of course a shorter Panhard link. They were not that much wrong, as is the lower pivot is just about 4mm too outside, should they have made it vertical instead of inclined, they would have been pretty close.

However being that the pivot are nevel level at ride height, the axle will always travel on the lower portion of the Panhard arc, so always shifting toward the same side of the chassis, and the only way to reduce the shifting amplitude is to reduce the vertical travel of the axle, so using shorter shocks.

that is the issue I can see from the start. The setup out of box stock functions, just not like it should. The mount locations are all wrong for both the Panhard and Steering. They are not whack, but they Could have been Oh so much better with a bit more thought into mount locations, opposed, right there looks good. Which is kind of what it appears what was done.

Getting the pan hard to function more properly with an arc, is the best we can get. It is possible looking at the setup without taking many measurements for clearance of new mount location etc. But its not going to be a one item fix. There are 4 or 5 different things that need to be addressed to improve the front end setup. They are not Huge changes, but will make a HUGE Difference once they are done. A low profile horn will do far more than the Club 5 relocation mount. As it introduces other issues into the mix, or makes a few others even worse.

Ferp. I don't mean to be a dick. However, I'm a salty bastard by nature. lol


Perhaps my op was not as clear as it could/should have been. but I thought it was pretty clear the setup sucks and needs some serious attention and some work to function as it should.
On my rig, the entire shift was lateral, to the right (passenger side). Not a little bit, but by the time the entire suspension traveled its path, the shift was nearly 1/2 in. No Arc, No "Swing" just a push right from top to bottom..
That is not great by any means, regardless of a Pan hard setup doing what it does, and the limits it has by design. It is what it is. but no reason it can't be a better version than what it currently is. Plenty of smart people here to actually see the issues, and be able to correct them without too much effort.

This is why the pan hard link is too long as designed. And why the first thing I did was shorten it a bit, to see how bad the system was off. It was made to fit the current mount locations because there was not enough thought put into it in design. Had the mount locations been moved to a more appropriate position, then the pan hard would be a bit shorter than it is, and there would be at least some arc in the axle shift, not a straight line sideways.


My goal is to improve my rig, and maybe others in turn. I like this Axe. I am very pleased with it overall. I am also glad RedCat has improved every aspect of their game. I wouldn't have dropped 500 on it if they didn't.

Some things will always need to be addressed. That is the nature of the hobby and for people like ourselves, a big part of the draw when we're busting knuckles.
That is where I am at with it.

[bgredjeep]

Originally Posted by Timmahh

It moves, ALL ONE DIRECTION through the entire ****ing suspension travel. HELLO? BEULLER BEULLER?

The pan hard should ARC, with the 1/2 travel mark being the outer most part of the arc. Not the Bottom or top of it as clearly detailed in the video posted. DERP.

The video is showing a rear panhard so it completely omits steering from the equation. It's also representing a short range of travel. 4500 class race cars tend to have the tie-rod and panhard flat at full bump to keep the steering gear protected. It's also a matter of packaging since the axle and the steering box can't occupy the same space. These are actually using all the vertical travel in their suspension, and at high speed so it must not be too terrible.

My rock crawler is setup with the panhard flat at mid travel (14" total) . It's not hard to do with full hydro steering. My frame side mount is several inches below the frame. At full bump the axle side mount moves through a notch above the frame and the frame side is in front of the axle tube. With frame mounted steering, packaging just isn't feasible. If you have limited up travel, sure. A TJ with 3" up travel can probably run flat at ride height.

[ferp420]

Originally Posted by Timmahh

Again you are missing the point. I never said the axle shouldn't move laterally with a pan hard setup. What I particularly pointed out in my op is how ****ing terrible the Gen 8 pan hard setup is. It moves, ALL ONE DIRECTION through the entire ****ing suspension travel. HELLO? BEULLER BEULLER?

The pan hard should ARC, with the 1/2 travel mark being the outer most part of the arc. Not the Bottom or top of it as clearly detailed in the video posted. DERP.

mine travals in a arc although its a vary lopsided arc way more swing on the drop out side and when driving on flatish ground theres no noticeable bumpnsteer or axle shift but being theres so much traval and proper geomitry can not be had im ok with how it is now it just took some tinkering



i was trying to point out we already had this conversation when this truck was relesed everyone has there own formula but we all basicly ended up on the same page and posted our fixes for it and your fix isent in line with what we have came up with not that thats a problem but your explination for your fix dosent make sence as explained now if you sead you shortened your panhard bar to help align the axle under the truck that would be easy enuff to swallow but saying a shorter link will stop the axle swing is just wrong it increses it and might shorten your traval but your more than welcome to test that theroryfor your self



hay dont worry about coming off alittle harsh we can all be dicks at times and i know i have that problem too at times its cool and it sends the snow flakes running back to fakebook hills in the end were still playing with toys so even if we dont agree on the right way to play with our toys there is no wrong way to play even though we might poke at each other with sticks every once and a while its all in good fun so if i say your a a-hole cause your not playing with your toy right just know its all in good fun



it seems all redcats are about 90% engineered the rest is left up to us to figure out that last 10% is the difference between a toy and a hobby grade rc
how you finnish that 10% is up to you no right no wrong but most of us have been there for along time now and we try to help others that arent all the way there yet some times we get people who think they know it all and go off in other directions and thats fine but dont tell everyone you have a fix when we have already been there done that and figured out thats headlights should be white and tail lights red

[waxen]

Originally Posted by Flamnpede1

I'm sorry to say but the club5 relocation and links are not designed properly. I bought the whole setup and tried many different combinations of above the knuckle below the knuckle etc. and it all ended with me sending the entire setup back because it was so bad. The link that ties the knuckles together sticks so far out I felt is was going to be a hanging point and the way it flops up and down just drove me crazy. I also ordered the suspension links and after the issues with the steering setup I didn't even bother installing them and just sent them back.

Things you did right....SSD Lower link mounts, and the low profile servo horn.

I currently have somewhere around 60 miles on the truck and other then those two items above I really haven't changed much for the steering / suspension geometry. It crawls, it trails and does pretty much everything I could ask for. So for me I'm not going to waste money or time redesigning the suspension because it doesn't match a 1:1 truck exactly or might be a few mm's off during suspension travel. All I can say is it works and people might be overthinking things a bit.

Bravo, well said.

[Timmahh]

Just because one person could NOT make something work does not mean that way wont work, it just means that one person or persons failed to solve the issue.

So some people can give up, others will actually fix the problems that are fixable.

[ferp420]

Originally Posted by Timmahh

Just because one person could NOT make something work does not mean that way wont work, it just means that one person or persons failed to solve the issue.

So some people can give up, others will actually fix the problems that are fixable.

the problem is when some one says there product solves a problem but realy just makes it worse and at best you have to make it work and there are people who are so stuburn they will try to make that part

[Bob_in az]

The Club 5 steering links work great for me. No complaints at all. I don't have the servo relocation bracket, so maybe that's where the problems are.

[Timmahh]

Waiting for the Bowhouse RC Pan Hard Relocation link to arrive. Its been stuck in Detroits usps hub for almost 2 weeks now.

In the meantime, I ordered the Treal Chubs and the F&R Portal housings. Add some low weight, even it out with the rear inners, and strengthen the Knuckle steering arm as well. These were out of stock came in, ordered and were shipped and arrived via USPS/Amazon with in 7 days. lol USPS Sucks hind teet.

Once the Bowhouse relocation mount arrives, I'll start digging back into the pan hard issue and figure out what can be done from there.

Fwiw, I did read pretty much all the old threads on this issue. Just never seen a real solution, just small bandaids that will do fine in scratch issues, but wont do much for bullet holes. One suture at a time. Still may end up with a major reconstruction surgery to really solve the problem presented.