Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

[GiJoe]

Originally Posted by Rckcrwlr

I think he means on the score sheets...

Both... As a judge, no one told me their scale points, I didn't ask, and therefore, never entered onto the score sheet.


As a driver, I never told the scale points, judges never asked me, and like everyone else, I initialed a score sheet with the scale point column EMPTY.


Somehow, when scores were tallied, the guys in the pavilion gave me my -43 scale points in class 3. That was reflected in my final scores.

Class 2, my scale points never got entered....
I rocked those courses! Finished all 3, yet here I sit at 22nd place.

[Metal Masher]

Originally Posted by Harley

Huge loop hole in the scale rules. ty and I actually talked about this specifically BEFORE class 2 even started. Crazy that it came around to be true this weekend.

SORRCA has to realize that this is a very poorly thought out rule. This has been a method that has been worked through before and their method of reinventing the wheel leaves gaps for these things to happen. The point out value needs to be set for the courses beforehand (40, 50, whatever).

You know i remember the scoring being more involved for DNF. the way i remember it you needed to have all the scores in. then you would separate all the DNF scores from the non DNF. then you take the worst score of the non DNF, add 20 to that (or some other predetermined number) then add that total to everyone that was DNF. that would guarantee that all DNF scores be worse then non DNF.

We always used the max scale points system with our clubs. That made it super easy. since every DNF was the same points it came down to progress and/or time to determine position. we have been doing it for nearly 10 years with no issues.

I understand the theory that having no max points potentially gives the driver the opportunity to finish the courses but you can make the max points as high as you want to accomplish the same result.

I don't know what the solution is but i agree it does need to be ironed out more.

[Metal Masher]

Originally Posted by GiJoe

Both... As a judge, no one told me their scale points, I didn't ask, and therefore, never entered onto the score sheet.


As a driver, I never told the scale points, judges never asked me, and like everyone else, I initialed a score sheet with the scale point column EMPTY.


Somehow, when scores were tallied, the guys in the pavilion gave me my -43 scale points in class 3. That was reflected in my final scores.

Class 2, my scale points never got entered....
I rocked those courses! Finished all 3, yet here I sit at 22nd place.

When i ran with the EPA guys they put stickers with 1/2 the scale points right on the trucks. that way there was no question what each persons scale points were per car.

[GiJoe]

8 of us got the EXACT SAME SCORE posted for class 3..... Something here needs addressed.

51, 76, 103

Many more are repetitive. Too much to be coincidence...
I'm going to bed. If I can...

[Metal Masher]

Originally Posted by mjderstine

i dnf'd a course in C1, but made all the gates, so it was a bit odd since the last finish gate isnt a gate... so how does that even work into this. time expired as i was driving the finish "gate"

the boundary lines was a weird thing on course 3 of c2. when the course was setup all the judges were told that all the drivers must go up and around that tree because that is where the boundary went. so that is how it was judged in the beginning. i think when the alternate judges took over the word was not passed along and some of the more experienced drivers used this gap in the boundary to avoid the obstacle, and the judge was none the wiser.
maybe the the orange line got worn away, or was not painted all the way to the gate in the first place, so some contestants started to work this gap to their advantage, avoiding perhaps one of the most difficult parts of the course that a majority of the drivers were told they must go to. believe me, i talked about it for a long time with contestants, other judges, and the marshalls themselves.

in hind site the boundary should have extended from the gate to the water, or just put a gate up that obstacle past the tree.

I rarely use boundaries when i build courses. i always try to let the gates force the direction the drivers need to go.

[RebelRacer]

This sounds like exactly what happened.. The DNF's weren't tallied correctly or points weren't added... But I agree that if you DNF you should be in a completely different category and shouldn't be able to take part in the finals course and this is nothing against the guys that were in the finals, they're a great bunch of guys and some awesome drivers but it is what it is, if you had a DNF, you shouldn't have been there.

Originally Posted by Metal Masher

You know i remember the scoring being more involved for DNF. the way i remember it you needed to have all the scores in. then you would separate all the DNF scores from the non DNF. then you take the worst score of the non DNF, add 20 to that (or some other predetermined number) then add that total to everyone that was DNF. that would guarantee that all DNF scores be worse then non DNF.

We always used the max scale points system with our clubs. That made it super easy. since every DNF was the same points it came down to progress and/or time to determine position. we have been doing it for nearly 10 years with no issues.

I understand the theory that having no max points potentially gives the driver the opportunity to finish the courses but you can make the max points as high as you want to accomplish the same result.

I don't know what the solution is but i agree it does need to be ironed out more.

[Harley]

Originally Posted by RebelRacer

This sounds like exactly what happened.. The DNF's weren't tallied correctly or points weren't added... But I agree that if you DNF you should be in a completely different category and shouldn't be able to take part in the finals course and this is nothing against the guys that were in the finals, they're a great bunch of guys and some awesome drivers but it is what it is, if you had a DNF, you shouldn't have been there.

Just lumping DNF's isn't the way to handle it, it should be a matter of how they are calculated. The USRCCA rule is based on the rules developed in the full size world and they just work. The point out can be set anywhere, but it needs to be defined.

[War Pig]

When John asked me about how to calculate DNF's I didn't feel that I could "tweak" the written rules by telling him different. The DNF needs to be changed. When we wrote that rule, progresses were only worth 1 point (10 for the whole course). Now they are worth 2 so you get 20 progress points per course. We just need to change it to highest finishing score +40 minus progresses, that would fix everything. I believe that if someone drives really well on 2 or 3 courses but DNF's one course (that ALOT of people don't finish) you should still have a slight chance to be in the top 10. There will be a new DNF rule for 2015.

[RebelRacer]

I disagree strongly with someone DNF-ing and still having a shot at a final unless 22 of 25 people DNF the course, than of course some DNF-ers would be in the top 5. But when you have 6-7 people only finish all three courses one would think that they should be in the finals and at the top.

[Tin Soldier]

So the way we run our points for Keystone RC is like this:

We set a 40 point maximum limit. So if you run out of time you DNF and that is +40 points - progress - scale point = total for course.
Dns is set at 50 points. So if you don't start the run you get +50.

If you are running and your penalties hit +40 then you DNF same as a time out, so +40 - progress - scale points = total for course.

While this does mean the judge has to think a little bit more and do some quick math while judging, it has helped to eliminate some of these issues, and it makes things more fair.

[Tin Soldier]

Originally Posted by gdb85

This was a big problem. I take full responsibility for this since I was heavily involved in course set up. I was super embarrassed when I saw folks taking advantage of errant and missing borders and in essence cutting the course but with in the "so called rules" technically.

When the judges were given the walk thru, we were told to tell them to drive up around the tree and stay in the boundaries. So if the judge's job is to point out where to go, then you should not be able to bypass where the judge has told you go. So most people followed what the judge said.

[MudHoncho]

So if we go by what you guys are saying about a DNF, You should almost be guaranteed not to finish within the top 10 or so? So in a sense it would almost be silly to even continue running courses if you even DNF 1 Course even due to timing out??

I mean you get a DNF and you get the penalty points for that, But should you also get punished and not even able to win Or get a top place? Just some thoughts on the subject

[youngblood]

Originally Posted by mjderstine

In hind site the boundary should have extended from the gate to the water, or just put a gate up that obstacle past the tree.

Originally Posted by Metal Masher

I rarely use boundaries when i build courses. i always try to let the gates force the direction the drivers need to go.

This.


Even back in the 2.2 comp days boundaries only seemed to add confusion. A boundary should only be used sparingly to keep people from going a blatantly obvious direction. They definitely shouldn't be used as "gates." The graffiti in the tank trap yesterday was visually confusing as a driver.

[mjderstine]

Originally Posted by RebelRacer

I disagree strongly with someone DNF-ing and still having a shot at a final unless 22 of 25 people DNF the course, than of course some DNF-ers would be in the top 5. But when you have 6-7 people only finish all three courses one would think that they should be in the finals and at the top.

i was one of the guys who did finish all 3 courses. and i had guys telling me all day i should be a lock for the top 5 since barely a handful of guys made that course 3. then when scores were up i barely made the top ten. granted i am happy with that, but bummed i didnt get a chance to make the finals considering most people DNF'd.

i was told there was a point out DNF at 50 points at some point during the day on saturday. but it was not something that was said during the first judges meeting friday morning.

[youngblood]

How about 50pts for point out or DNF, and 60pts for DNS?

40 point out, 50 DNS worked for 2.2 comps but there should be more of a cushion in the scale points system.

[GiJoe]

Did anyone else double check Class 3 scores yet???????

[pardonmyn00b]

Originally Posted by Tin Soldier

When the judges were given the walk thru, we were told to tell them to drive up around the tree and stay in the boundaries. So if the judge's job is to point out where to go, then you should not be able to bypass where the judge has told you go. So most people followed what the judge said.

Unless it was a judge, marshall or someone in the rules committee who used the gray area of boundaries to their advantage when they ran after seeing the "common people" go through.

[mjderstine]

Originally Posted by pardonmyn00b

Unless it was a judge, marshall or someone in the rules committee who used the gray area of boundaries to their advantage when they ran after seeing the "common people" go through.

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but in all seriousness, boundaries were a bit over used and under regulated. there were too many times to count when there was a blue, yellow, orange, pink dot, blue dot, where do i go? why do i have to, there is no gate. is that really a boundary?

perhaps this is a part where the SORCA team should develop a more finely articulated boundary rule

[sgil2001]

After reading this, it makes me feel guilty for making the finals. I didn't even know what my scores were (or any one elses for that matter). I just went and ran when they called my name. Hopefully by next year all the grey areas in the rules and regs will be worked out so nobody feels slighted in the end.

Gil

[JesterSpec]

Originally Posted by pardonmyn00b

Unless it was a judge, marshall or someone in the rules committee who used the gray area of boundaries to their advantage when they ran after seeing the "common people" go through.

I can honestly tell you that I didn't run class 2 (not that I didn't want too), Chad(marshall) was one of the last to run, and GDB85 was the very last to run all 3 courses. They had absolutely no advantages over the other drivers.

The first ones to figure out the loopholes were not wearing any judges shirts that I saw, and they did it pretty much in the middle of the pack of drivers.

The idea behind gate 10, then a last marker to stop time was to prevent people just launching through a gate to finish time. We wanted controlled progression through gate 10.


I do hope everyone understands that with the course setup we did our absolute best to ensure that the courses were stable and solid.

The largest problems were people stepping on course and shifting the large rocks that were moved into place to maintain the course and for the trucks, stepping on the banks that were for the trucks and wearing them away, and others with a hard trigger finger that didn't know when to stop and pull a winch line and just kept digging.


When I walked the class 2 courses to retrieve the markers I didn't recognize course 2 or 3 at all.