Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

[Tin Soldier]

Just because you run out of time should not disqualify you completely. If you run a perfect run and time out at the last gate then you absolutely are a better driver then the guy who hit 3 gates and 20 reverses but makes it thru all ten gates. The time limits are in place so that we are not waiting a half hour on one guy to get thru a course. I have never liked adding points to the worst score and using that as dnf. It's not very fair at all and does not reflect on the drivers ability at all.

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[War Pig]

Originally Posted by imthatguy

I think this would be an entirely more interesting discussion if SORCCA were to look at instituting a minimum scale points, rather than a maximum.

The issue with that is excluding newer less experienced people with 15 point trucks. What message is that sending? Oh, maybe that SORRCA is a bunch of elitist assholes. Scale points work themselves out.
We've been through all this before. There is no reason for a minimum and a real need for a max. We just need to find a reasonable and simple formula for DNF's that doesn't put a lot of unnecessary pressure on the judges like a point out does. Judges have enough to worry about without keeping track of the competitors score during their run.

[MudHoncho]

A DNF already punishes you with adding points to the score, why have more punishment than that? Well also there is the frustration of not completing the course too but that's just more of a personal problem than an overall score problem

[JohnRobHolmes]

Make it easy, don't try to reinvent the process. 50 point DNS, 40 point DNF, subtract the gate bonuses from the DNF to find the course points and then do all that scale stuff. Since SORCCA has joined the ORVA, we can incorporate this into the online scoring for you so all the judges would need to do is record how many gates were completed and finish time/ remaining time or DNF. Then the tally man would enter it into the online forms that are generated for your event and the form does all the heavy tabulation. All I need is the go ahead and we will make it as easy as possible.


PS edit, as the new owner of the OG USRCCA ruleset I don't care if you rip off rules from it. Have at it and use the format that has been tested and tuned already!

[imthatguy]

Originally Posted by War Pig

The issue with that is excluding newer less experienced people with 15 point trucks. What message is that sending? Oh, maybe that SORRCA is a bunch of elitist assholes. Scale points work themselves out.
We've been through all this before. There is no reason for a minimum and a real need for a max. We just need to find a reasonable and simple formula for DNF's that doesn't put a lot of unnecessary pressure on the judges like a point out does. Judges have enough to worry about without keeping track of the competitors score during their run.

That's a good point, and not something I had considered. There's always room for beginners, and encouraging them to participate is important. Strike that from the record.

[GiJoe]

You know...I gotta be honest here.
When I left ECSC 2014 yesterday after watching the TTC, I left Rose Pointe Camp Ground (Great people by the way...) with a grin that went from ear to ear. And I got some pretty big ears!

Got to see old friends, make some new friends, drink some beers and eat some AMAZING food!

Brought home the Class 3 build award, and got some awesome prizes (Thanks Screw Loose!!!)

The scaling was EPIC! Courses were beautiful, Rigs were PHENOMENAL!

My kids had a blast swimming, playing on the playground, riding bikes, playing with RC Cars.

My wife had a wonderful time and commented how friendly people were.

Good times had by all...My wife and I talked the whole ride home and made a list for next year of what to bring, what to leave home, how to build a new rig, etc. etc. etc.

All in anticipation for an event not announced yet! That's how the year revolves around ECSC for my family and many others.

It was like that after ECSC 2013, building rigs, testing rigs, planning time off work, saving money and cancelling everything on the calander in August until the dates are set in stone. Practice! Practice! Practice!!!

Every NOSTR and GURU Comp or GTG throughout the year had excited talk of ECSC 2014!!!! Its gonna Kick ASS!!!!! Cant Wait to Go!!!! Is it August Yet!!!!!!!!




Edit:
Fixed it! Sorry for the smart ass post....frustrations were high at the moment and have cooled off.
Please enjoy the above post for what it is...a reflection of a GREAT event! Can't wait till 2015!

[sgtbham]

Originally Posted by imthatguy

That's a good point, and not something I had considered. There's always room for beginners, and encouraging them to participate is important. Strike that from the record.

I'm not sure it's an entirely bad idea if you apply it to a whole new class - you would still have 1,2, and 3 with no minimum and a new class with a minimum that lets us be super scale nerds BUT I'm just spitballing ideas here, haha!

[gdb85]

A lot of good points & suggestions popping up and some with a little piss & vinegar, lol.

If the system in place needs to stay then tweaking is definately necessary. I like JRH suggestion of 40 DNF & 50 DNS but it should go a tad farther, 1 point for progression instead of 2.

A better system for down loading scale points needs to happen also. I'm disappointed that guys were getting 0 scale points recorded because I was there with Jesterspec & CD13 for hours teching rigs and they were written down before stickers were given.

I'm also extremely disappointed and a little mad that some felt compelled to take advantage of loop holes to cut the course to better their time to gain an edge on others. You can say technically it's within the rules and it's OK but it's not, bottom line is it's cheating. It's a shame that being over competitive at a toy truck comp brings that out in people. You can say, "well I came to win and I'll do whatever it takes within the rules to do just that", and I'll say maybe you're into this for all the wrong reasons.

I hope that wherever the comps are next year you learn from our mistakes and short comings and learn from it and make it an even better event.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by gdb85

...

I don't think this is about cheating at all, it is about comprehension of the rules. I was one that "cut lines" on course, but I always asked the judge before I did so. If they said it was ok then I did. I understand that course design wanted drivers to go into specific areas, but without gates in those areas and alternate routes present it was kind of an easy choice to go somewhere else. In the 8 years I have been attending events I have learned that these events are as much about knowing your vehicle as they are thinking about the terrain. Thats part of the fun for me. The challenges should come from the gates, getting to them and getting through them. But when lines are drawn on a section of dirt with no present gates and judges dictating that you don't have to go there, why would you? I understand now that it was an "event requirement" that all drivers must go through the lines, but at the time that knowledge was not shared.

We live and learn from these experiences, I really don't think this is anything to get hung up on. It was still a great event. Arguing over this really won't fix anything. But a constructive discussion of how to fix this for future events will.

My suggestions:

1: Don't use Out of bounds lines.

or

2: Create out of bounds lines that don't allow you to go outside the bounds and back in without penalty, or create O.B. boxes that dictate massive areas that are off limits.

Either way comprehension of the O.B. needs to be fully understood before they are used.

From past experience I have seen these issues at several events be it scale or pro. And from that experience I have found it best to just avoid O.B. lines on course altogether.

[JohnRobHolmes]

I also agree with avoiding OB lines whenever possible. It's easier to manage a strategic gate as a judge and as a driver.

[mjderstine]

My sentiments exactly turtle. I think I may have said that earlier. Just don't use boundaries unless you are mapping out bee hives.

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

Make it easy, don't try to reinvent the process. 50 point DNS, 40 point DNF, subtract the gate bonuses from the DNF to find the course points and then do all that scale stuff.

So two gates, a rollover, 10 reverses and a few winches and your done for the course? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.....

I'd seriously rather see organizers have to do a bit more work (as far as scoring goes) if we can keep the "fun factor" in scale competitions. It all about the drive time.

[sf2000xj]

Originally Posted by War Pig

...if we can keep the "fun factor" in scale competitions. It all about the drive time.

That's really what it's about for me how much fun I have, once it's not fun anymore I'll probably quit going.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by War Pig

So two gates, a rollover, 10 reverses and a few winches and your done for the course? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.....

I'd seriously rather see organizers have to do a bit more work (as far as scoring goes) if we can keep the "fun factor" in scale competitions. It all about the drive time.

But we loose that "fun factor" when things like this pop up. Knowing exactly where you are in the points every minute of the course allows for an easier system for everyone. Plus these numbers can be up'd. On top of that if you actually look at scores from events no one gets more then 60 points in penalties on a course. If they do chances are they are not having fun anyway.

If you look at the worst scores from ECSC (I think) they were somewhere in the 60's and thats with 20 points added for a DNF. The USRCCA system really doesn't look like it will hurt anything, just make everything simpler for everyone to understand and know where they are during an event.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Make it 1000 points, I don't care what the actual numbers are. There is obviously a hole in your system and a sliding scale based on other competitors performance is not the answer, unless you want to force everybody into an even more complicated scoring that can't be completed until after everybody's scores are in.

[Szczerba]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

Make it 1000 points,

This is what a few of us were talking about this weekend. That exact number, actually. I do like the fact that there was no point out, as it let me get more drive time on the course.

Drivers taking the full 8 minutes wasnt an issue cause those ECSC judges were running 2-3 guys per course both days! Lines went fast.

[kunas]

I have mixed feelings on the boundries, first time I saw it was last years ecsc from Warpig, my first thought was look at that shit he just cheated the system , the course designer wanted us to go this way, then after I watched him I said look at that shit hes the smartest one on the course 100% legal. We don't play like that in our local comps if it was intended to drive through/ across that's what we go after, don't fault anyone for doing it, pisses me off that he ran after I did so I could have used the trick. We either need to use the no boundry rule or start the boundries directly after gates to the intended area or play the smartest man on the course wins. As far as points are concerned I don't know the answer either, its hard to say that a person that had a dnf cant get higher points over someone that had 2 perfect runs and a dnf, I can blow through courses in a few minutes if I don't worry about my points on the other hand that person did finish and the other person that had a dnf didn't

[JohnRobHolmes]

That is where the DNF point balance needs to happen. So what if you don't finish in 8 minutes? 950 points and no chance of a podium if anybody else finished? 100 points may be more reasonable.

[RebelRacer]

i can see this is going to be a back and forth issue because people that DNF still want the win and people that finish everything think different. I honestly think that if you finish all 3 course or however many courses there is you should be at the top NO MATTER, if there is 50 entrants and 15 of them finish all the courses, then that should be your top 15. After that start with the people that had 1 DNF and so on...
People keep saying this isnt a race but yet there was a time limit so in a sense weather you want to admit it or not you were racing the clock..

But all this talk is useless because i dont really see a change that will be implemented that will completely fix the problem. My biggest issue now honestly is the scale point debacle.. This seriously needs address and not swept under the rug!!

[MudHoncho]

Doing that would make the comps go ALOT faster...... Because as soon as anyone who DNFs a course will probably just walk back to their pit/cabin/home whatever the case may be, instead of dragging their trucks thru more tough courses without the possibility of a hoped for top finish