Didn't finish all the courses. still in the finals.

[MudHoncho]

I see it as this..... I run and let's say I am doing good but then literally get WEDGED in between 2 rocks. Close to the end but then DNF'd due to time etc etc. so I take my DNF along with its hefty price tag and move on to the other courses where btw I don't DNF and do quite well to land a top 5 spot. That hefty price tag isn't fair enough? Do we really need to add the instant loss factor to it as well?

[binaryterror]

Originally Posted by RebelRacer

DNF's are in a completely different category. If you DNF there shouldn't be a chance to make the top anything

Are you looking for the best crawler on 3 given courses only? Or the best crawler who showed up. If a really good driver has a repair put them out of a course and comes back and dominates the other 2, you think its fair he gets excluded?

Look at all racing...you can lose a qualifier, but win a race.

Jack of all trades, master of none...I thought we were looking for CHAMPIONS/ meaning best overall score.

Originally Posted by R2j

We did start a discussion about it after SWSC and will be addressed for the 2015 rules.

Can you also address the terrible gate widths? 13" width for class 3, a class in which a new guy can bring in a wraith and barely squeeze in gates unless he is able to point nearly directly straight into them. Especially some tricky sliding or off camber gates. My comp truck is narrow, can turn better, and can use dig unpenalized gets 16" gate widths. That or every truck needs a minimum width in class 3 to make those gate widths fair for all drivers

Originally Posted by gdb85

Pro Comp crap

Sad to think we have to be separate groups. Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to scale then...I am a comp guy still.

Pro Comp rules are more true to scale than Scale Comp rules. Scale points don't exist in the real world, safety is a concern not who can put in the most beer cans or baseball bats. Ever seen a class 3 type rig in person with glued or bolted on scale items just to earn some points?

Originally Posted by Metal Masher

When i ran with the EPA guys they put stickers with 1/2 the scale points right on the trucks. that way there was no question what each persons scale points were per car.

This is directed more at SORCCA than your idea...

How'd you handle missing scale items? Odd I could have teched in much higher, removed things and no one cared EVER. I lost a few items, still NO MENTION I would be losing scale points.

Literally could have teched in with Chassis Steering and removed it for my much better servo on axle, no one would have ever known.

Originally Posted by Harley

The USRCCA rule is based on the rules developed in the full size world and they just work. The point out can be set anywhere, but it needs to be defined.

I agreee completely, and after reading the SORRCA rules, find it odd they are LESS scale realistic than well the Real 1:1 Rules.

Originally Posted by pardonmyn00b

The heavy throttle after a certain amount of time should be a mandatory winch or recovery. There were a lot of trucks and people going through so it's understandable the courses degraded over time.

So now a winch is mandatory? I thought that was an option. If courses degrade, that happens in REAL 1:1 crawling. Why does it appear scale guys want to be less like 1:1 trucks than Comp guys? Get on course quick if you worry about degrading. Just walking the courses you could literally move rocks to help your truck...

Originally Posted by Harley

Basing a drivers score based on the performance of other drivers at the event is an insane idea to me.

So Harley could win because he could pay me to crawl terrible and set a mega DNF point out...genius way to keep things fair and fun

Originally Posted by gdb85

Maybe...but how's that participation thing working out?

Ahh more Comp trash talk. Keep up the great attitude, you'll be one of the scale guys eventually doing it alone when yet another group forms because SORCCA is unwilling to change for the better.

USRCCA had issues, but lets leave them as USRCCA issues and maybe learn from them. The elitist attitude can go both ways....just as ugly when a Scale guy acts better.

Originally Posted by imthatguy

I think this would be an entirely more interesting discussion if SORCCA were to look at instituting a minimum scale points, rather than a maximum.

Minimum? Now no new crawlers can join. Sorry guys with your stock Axials, only people willing to spend a lot of money on scale items, or well you can make them. Otherwise, sorry we don't want to grow, only see the same people who can pay or make parts.

Show me a 1:1 class where when you add things to your truck you get more points? How many 1:1 rigs on a trail are packed with weird items, do they do it for Scale realism?

Or hey, my truck sucks at crawling, but if I add more scale points I have a chance. It's not about the truck or driving, just adding scale points. Seems like that is best left to Show and Shine.

Originally Posted by War Pig

So two gates, a rollover, 10 reverses and a few winches and your done for the course? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.....

Why only 40? Could be any number, but it needs to be there. If I DNF because a course designer runs a weird small truck in class 3 and all the Wraith based trucks can't fit. Doesn't sound like fun to us wraith owners. But I guess Wraiths aren't important....13" gate rules still exist.

----

So I have 2 complaints that aren't addressed:

1: 13" gate widths and yet nothing to make that fair or fun to all the drivers or all the current axles on the market.

2: Why is the show and shine AFTER classes have to run and get beat up? I mean some of the rigs entered are basically static models. How can anyone even compete with that?

[ROWDY RACING]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Are you looking for the best crawler on 3 given courses only? Or the best crawler who showed up. If a really good driver has a repair put them out of a course and comes back and dominates the other 2, you think its fair he gets excluded?

Look at all racing...you can lose a qualifier, but win a race.

Jack of all trades, master of none...I thought we were looking for CHAMPIONS/ meaning best overall score.



Can you also address the terrible gate widths? 13" width for class 3, a class in which a new guy can bring in a wraith and barely squeeze in gates unless he is able to point nearly directly straight into them. Especially some tricky sliding or off camber gates. My comp truck is narrow, can turn better, and can use dig unpenalized gets 16" gate widths. That or every truck needs a minimum width in class 3 to make those gate widths fair for all drivers



Sad to think we have to be separate groups. Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to scale then...I am a comp guy still.

Pro Comp rules are more true to scale than Scale Comp rules. Scale points don't exist in the real world, safety is a concern not who can put in the most beer cans or baseball bats. Ever seen a class 3 type rig in person with glued or bolted on scale items just to earn some points?



This is directed more at SORCCA than your idea...

How'd you handle missing scale items? Odd I could have teched in much higher, removed things and no one cared EVER. I lost a few items, still NO MENTION I would be losing scale points.

Literally could have teched in with Chassis Steering and removed it for my much better servo on axle, no one would have ever known.



I agreee completely, and after reading the SORRCA rules, find it odd they are LESS scale realistic than well the Real 1:1 Rules.



So now a winch is mandatory? I thought that was an option. If courses degrade, that happens in REAL 1:1 crawling. Why does it appear scale guys want to be less like 1:1 trucks than Comp guys? Get on course quick if you worry about degrading. Just walking the courses you could literally move rocks to help your truck...



So Harley could win because he could pay me to crawl terrible and set a mega DNF point out...genius way to keep things fair and fun



Ahh more Comp trash talk. Keep up the great attitude, you'll be one of the scale guys eventually doing it alone when yet another group forms because SORCCA is unwilling to change for the better.

USRCCA had issues, but lets leave them as USRCCA issues and maybe learn from them. The elitist attitude can go both ways....just as ugly when a Scale guy acts better.



Minimum? Now no new crawlers can join. Sorry guys with your stock Axials, only people willing to spend a lot of money on scale items, or well you can make them. Otherwise, sorry we don't want to grow, only see the same people who can pay or make parts.

Show me a 1:1 class where when you add things to your truck you get more points? How many 1:1 rigs on a trail are packed with weird items, do they do it for Scale realism?

Or hey, my truck sucks at crawling, but if I add more scale points I have a chance. It's not about the truck or driving, just adding scale points. Seems like that is best left to Show and Shine.



Why only 40? Could be any number, but it needs to be there. If I DNF because a course designer runs a weird small truck in class 3 and all the Wraith based trucks can't fit. Doesn't sound like fun to us wraith owners. But I guess Wraiths aren't important....13" gate rules still exist.

----

So I have 2 complaints that aren't addressed:

1: 13" gate widths and yet nothing to make that fair or fun to all the drivers or all the current axles on the market.

2: Why is the show and shine AFTER classes have to run and get beat up? I mean some of the rigs entered are basically static models. How can anyone even compete with that?

You sir get it, my sentiments exactly.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Are you looking for the best crawler on 3 given courses only? Or the best crawler who showed up. If a really good driver has a repair put them out of a course and comes back and dominates the other 2, you think its fair he gets excluded?

Look at all racing...you can lose a qualifier, but win a race.

Jack of all trades, master of none...I thought we were looking for CHAMPIONS/ meaning best overall score.



Can you also address the terrible gate widths? 13" width for class 3, a class in which a new guy can bring in a wraith and barely squeeze in gates unless he is able to point nearly directly straight into them. Especially some tricky sliding or off camber gates. My comp truck is narrow, can turn better, and can use dig unpenalized gets 16" gate widths. That or every truck needs a minimum width in class 3 to make those gate widths fair for all drivers



Sad to think we have to be separate groups. Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to scale then...I am a comp guy still.

Pro Comp rules are more true to scale than Scale Comp rules. Scale points don't exist in the real world, safety is a concern not who can put in the most beer cans or baseball bats. Ever seen a class 3 type rig in person with glued or bolted on scale items just to earn some points?



This is directed more at SORCCA than your idea...

How'd you handle missing scale items? Odd I could have teched in much higher, removed things and no one cared EVER. I lost a few items, still NO MENTION I would be losing scale points.

Literally could have teched in with Chassis Steering and removed it for my much better servo on axle, no one would have ever known.



I agreee completely, and after reading the SORRCA rules, find it odd they are LESS scale realistic than well the Real 1:1 Rules.



So now a winch is mandatory? I thought that was an option. If courses degrade, that happens in REAL 1:1 crawling. Why does it appear scale guys want to be less like 1:1 trucks than Comp guys? Get on course quick if you worry about degrading. Just walking the courses you could literally move rocks to help your truck...



So Harley could win because he could pay me to crawl terrible and set a mega DNF point out...genius way to keep things fair and fun



Ahh more Comp trash talk. Keep up the great attitude, you'll be one of the scale guys eventually doing it alone when yet another group forms because SORCCA is unwilling to change for the better.

USRCCA had issues, but lets leave them as USRCCA issues and maybe learn from them. The elitist attitude can go both ways....just as ugly when a Scale guy acts better.



Minimum? Now no new crawlers can join. Sorry guys with your stock Axials, only people willing to spend a lot of money on scale items, or well you can make them. Otherwise, sorry we don't want to grow, only see the same people who can pay or make parts.

Show me a 1:1 class where when you add things to your truck you get more points? How many 1:1 rigs on a trail are packed with weird items, do they do it for Scale realism?

Or hey, my truck sucks at crawling, but if I add more scale points I have a chance. It's not about the truck or driving, just adding scale points. Seems like that is best left to Show and Shine.



Why only 40? Could be any number, but it needs to be there. If I DNF because a course designer runs a weird small truck in class 3 and all the Wraith based trucks can't fit. Doesn't sound like fun to us wraith owners. But I guess Wraiths aren't important....13" gate rules still exist.

----

So I have 2 complaints that aren't addressed:

1: 13" gate widths and yet nothing to make that fair or fun to all the drivers or all the current axles on the market.

2: Why is the show and shine AFTER classes have to run and get beat up? I mean some of the rigs entered are basically static models. How can anyone even compete with that?

This was so good I had to quote the WHOLE thing!

Two words..

TRAIL CLASS.

[Rckcrwlr]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

Make it easy, don't try to reinvent the process. 50 point DNS, 40 point DNF, subtract the gate bonuses from the DNF to find the course points and then do all that scale stuff. Since SORCCA has joined the ORVA, we can incorporate this into the online scoring for you so all the judges would need to do is record how many gates were completed and finish time/ remaining time or DNF. Then the tally man would enter it into the online forms that are generated for your event and the form does all the heavy tabulation. All I need is the go ahead and we will make it as easy as possible.


PS edit, as the new owner of the OG USRCCA ruleset I don't care if you rip off rules from it. Have at it and use the format that has been tested and tuned already!

John,
I would like to discuss some thoughts with you regarding ORVA that may help. Not sure if you heard but I will be bringing the RC4WD Scale Challenge Nationwide and Canada...so consistency will be important and ORVA has the chance to make it right.

Let me get back on track and then we can talk.

John

[Rckcrwlr]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

So I have 2 complaints that aren't addressed:

1: 13" gate widths and yet nothing to make that fair or fun to all the drivers or all the current axles on the market.

2: Why is the show and shine AFTER classes have to run and get beat up? I mean some of the rigs entered are basically static models. How can anyone even compete with that?

I'll respond to these as best I can....

1. Not sure of Minimum and Max gates.

2. I originally mentioned to do SnS on Thursday Night but I got complaints that not everyone would be there (Legitimate). I don't think anyone held a couple scratches against a vote. But it is something to look at in 2015.

[sgtbham]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Are you looking for the best crawler on 3 given courses only? Or the best crawler who showed up. If a really good driver has a repair put them out of a course and comes back and dominates the other 2, you think its fair he gets excluded?



Look at all racing...you can lose a qualifier, but win a race.



Jack of all trades, master of none...I thought we were looking for CHAMPIONS/ meaning best overall score.







Can you also address the terrible gate widths? 13" width for class 3, a class in which a new guy can bring in a wraith and barely squeeze in gates unless he is able to point nearly directly straight into them. Especially some tricky sliding or off camber gates. My comp truck is narrow, can turn better, and can use dig unpenalized gets 16" gate widths. That or every truck needs a minimum width in class 3 to make those gate widths fair for all drivers







Sad to think we have to be separate groups. Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to scale then...I am a comp guy still.



Pro Comp rules are more true to scale than Scale Comp rules. Scale points don't exist in the real world, safety is a concern not who can put in the most beer cans or baseball bats. Ever seen a class 3 type rig in person with glued or bolted on scale items just to earn some points?







This is directed more at SORCCA than your idea...



How'd you handle missing scale items? Odd I could have teched in much higher, removed things and no one cared EVER. I lost a few items, still NO MENTION I would be losing scale points.



Literally could have teched in with Chassis Steering and removed it for my much better servo on axle, no one would have ever known.







I agreee completely, and after reading the SORRCA rules, find it odd they are LESS scale realistic than well the Real 1:1 Rules.







So now a winch is mandatory? I thought that was an option. If courses degrade, that happens in REAL 1:1 crawling. Why does it appear scale guys want to be less like 1:1 trucks than Comp guys? Get on course quick if you worry about degrading. Just walking the courses you could literally move rocks to help your truck...







So Harley could win because he could pay me to crawl terrible and set a mega DNF point out...genius way to keep things fair and fun







Ahh more Comp trash talk. Keep up the great attitude, you'll be one of the scale guys eventually doing it alone when yet another group forms because SORCCA is unwilling to change for the better.



USRCCA had issues, but lets leave them as USRCCA issues and maybe learn from them. The elitist attitude can go both ways....just as ugly when a Scale guy acts better.







Minimum? Now no new crawlers can join. Sorry guys with your stock Axials, only people willing to spend a lot of money on scale items, or well you can make them. Otherwise, sorry we don't want to grow, only see the same people who can pay or make parts.



Show me a 1:1 class where when you add things to your truck you get more points? How many 1:1 rigs on a trail are packed with weird items, do they do it for Scale realism?



Or hey, my truck sucks at crawling, but if I add more scale points I have a chance. It's not about the truck or driving, just adding scale points. Seems like that is best left to Show and Shine.







Why only 40? Could be any number, but it needs to be there. If I DNF because a course designer runs a weird small truck in class 3 and all the Wraith based trucks can't fit. Doesn't sound like fun to us wraith owners. But I guess Wraiths aren't important....13" gate rules still exist.



----



So I have 2 complaints that aren't addressed:



1: 13" gate widths and yet nothing to make that fair or fun to all the drivers or all the current axles on the market.



2: Why is the show and shine AFTER classes have to run and get beat up? I mean some of the rigs entered are basically static models. How can anyone even compete with that?

You almost have to listen to anyone that can keep Farmer in line

[RebelRacer]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Are you looking for the best crawler on 3 given courses only? Or the best crawler who showed up. If a really good driver has a repair put them out of a course and comes back and dominates the other 2, you think its fair he gets excluded?

Look at all racing...you can lose a qualifier, but win a race.

Jack of all trades, master of none...I thought we were looking for CHAMPIONS/ meaning best overall score.

Best overall score of all completed courses... maybe im just over thinking the whole thing.. i just do not understand why a person having a DNF thinks he/she deserves a shot at the title, in an event like this..

You build your rig to withstand the ultimate punishment in hopes of finishing all the courses for a shot at the title.. or at least that is what i do and then i get bumped by a guy/girl that had a DNF. THAT is what makes me not want to compete.

Also here is my (0) ZERO scale point rig...

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by Rckcrwlr

John,
I would like to discuss some thoughts with you regarding ORVA that may help. Not sure if you heard but I will be bringing the RC4WD Scale Challenge Nationwide and Canada...so consistency will be important and ORVA has the chance to make it right.

Let me get back on track and then we can talk.

John

Sounds great. I had a 30 minute talk with the programmer about this today, how to ensure consistency is done right and how we can keep our databases flexible to rules changes that affect scoring.

Congrats on turning into a series!

[binaryterror]

Originally Posted by RebelRacer

You build your rig to withstand the ultimate punishment in hopes of finishing all the courses for a shot at the title.. or at least that is what i do and then i get bumped by a guy/girl that had a DNF.

Nope I disagree. The first 3 courses were run as qualifiers. To enter the final course, which just so happens to be a top 5.

Let's say you have 2 perfect courses (-40 total) and a bummer DNF (let's say worst guy got a 100 so 100-20 progress, he got all 10 gates clean but missed the time through the finish). Add in -30 scale points. That's 10 points.

Now a guy thinking like you got 3 courses in with unlimited DNF and got 150-20, 350-20, and 40-20. Let's give him the same -30 scale points. His score was 480 points. He finished all 3 but Jesus Christ he's the worst crawler ever when it comes to avoiding points and being a good crawler deserving to move on.

Who is really the better crawler of those 2? Doesn't matter if you comp or scale it's CLEARLY the first driver. Crawling, real crawling is based on lowest points wins.

I believe your outlook fits TTC events, not crawling events.

[mjderstine]

Originally Posted by RebelRacer

Best overall score of all completed courses... maybe im just over thinking the whole thing.. i just do not understand why a person having a DNF thinks he/she deserves a shot at the title, in an event like this..

You build your rig to withstand the ultimate punishment in hopes of finishing all the courses for a shot at the title.. or at least that is what i do and then i get bumped by a guy/girl that had a DNF. THAT is what makes me not want to compete.

Also here is my (0) ZERO scale point rig...

its not scale because no one would ever put LEDs on the hood like that. JK though. that truck certainly has a lot of scale points. that ZERO should have led to some sort of investigation.

Binary: why wasnt i quoted? i feel left out. you make some really sound points. the main i like is the 13" widths. my Deuce it easily 12.5" wide. so i couldnt fit through many gates at all.

oh and as far as the maz scores being around 60 in C2. what about C3. they were well above 100 for a course! something weird happened there too, but at least the weirdness seemed to happen to everyone.

boundaries? just dont have them. then there won't be any fusion. just have gates and a direction to progress them. that is what we do at our local events, and its always worked fine

[RebelRacer]

Again proving my point that technically you could've DNF'd 2 of the courses or even all 3 courses and still had a shot.. and that to me is just dumb..
but i guess we will agree to disagree..

Maybe thats why i got the ZERO, lol. Damn LED's on the hood.

[binaryterror]

Originally Posted by mjderstine

Binary: why wasnt i quoted? i feel left out.

You just won a quote! Mainly because I agreed with your points.

Originally Posted by mjderstine

boundaries? just dont have them. then there won't be any fusion. just have gates and a direction to progress them. that is what we do at our local events, and its always worked fine

Boundaries are terrible. All they do is cause rule problems. If you need it to save some protected flower or protect people from jumping on a hornets nest, maybe. Soon we'll have the same conversation USRCCA has had...you can go over them if you fly and never touch them...blah. Just avoid them.

Originally Posted by Rckcrwlr

2. I originally mentioned to do SnS on Thursday Night but I got complaints that not everyone would be there (Legitimate). I don't think anyone held a couple scratches against a vote. But it is something to look at in 2015.

Yeah I figured that, and honestly hardly much of a complaint. Just got sad that white powder coat went from amazing to blah after some mud and courses.

Originally Posted by sgtbham

You almost have to listen to anyone that can keep Farmer in line

I think thats the only reason Rick wanted me to tag along...

Though I did get him in trouble at the award/raffle banquet. Sorry John

[THEmicroRR]

I do have one suggestion that could help with not only this issue, but with scheduling as well. We have three classes, events that sell out months in advance with 120 to 150 trucks. Something we were talking about for our event next July is three days, one class each day. Courses are tested, then average time will have say, 5 minutes for example, added to the cut off time. It gives the competitors more course time, opens up scheduling, etc. Just my $.02

[JohnRobHolmes]

What everybody should do is step back and realize that almost everything being discussed are minor details on the whole. I guarantee that everybody had a blast at the event (wish I could have made it), and this conversation online is out of proportion to the overall sentiments. And to be honest with ourselves there is ALWAYS an area where an event can be improved. My last event didn't have trophies and people brought it up. I'll make trophies next time and we just have the next biggest issue rise to the top, you see? Online discussions can make it seem like the fun has already been drained, when in real life (IRL) everybody is still having fun.




But this \/ \/ IS an issue that I see too and I'm going to do something about it myself. I have watched the various competitions splinter off over the years and we have just separated ourselves from ourselves. Enough!!

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Sad to think we have to be separate groups. Maybe I shouldn't be allowed to scale then...I am a comp guy still.

So I'm taking action now. I'll leave the rest for discussion here http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/chit-...ml#post4875117

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by binaryterror

Are you looking for the best crawler on 3 given courses only? Or the best crawler who showed up. If a really good driver has a repair put them out of a course and comes back and dominates the other 2, you think its fair he gets excluded?

I'm looking for the overall best drivers on that day. I've seen really good drivers screw the pooch on a course and nail the others. I'd hate to have one bad course (whether it's the drivers fault or course designer) ruin someones chance to compete in the top 5 or 10

Can you also address the terrible gate widths? 13" width for class 3, a class in which a new guy can bring in a wraith and barely squeeze in gates unless he is able to point nearly directly straight into them. Especially some tricky sliding or off camber gates. My comp truck is narrow, can turn better, and can use dig unpenalized gets 16" gate widths. That or every truck needs a minimum width in class 3 to make those gate widths fair for all drivers

Gate width dictates the truck width. Having to make the choice of running a wider truck for stability or narrow to get through gate easier is part of the game.

Pro Comp rules are more true to scale than Scale Comp rules. Scale points don't exist in the real world, safety is a concern not who can put in the most beer cans or baseball bats. Ever seen a class 3 type rig in person with glued or bolted on scale items just to earn some points?

Scale points are necessary or otherwise every truck looks like a current sporty. There are very few scale points available for baseball bats or beer cans. Most points come from actual performance robbing items.


This is directed more at SORCCA than your idea...

How'd you handle missing scale items? Odd I could have teched in much higher, removed things and no one cared EVER. I lost a few items, still NO MENTION I would be losing scale points.

Literally could have teched in with Chassis Steering and removed it for my much better servo on axle, no one would have ever known.

There's a thing called having a conscience and morals. If you were caught doing something like that, you would be immediately disqualified. There is a certain amount of trust involved in this hobby.


So now a winch is mandatory? I thought that was an option. If courses degrade, that happens in REAL 1:1 crawling. Why does it appear scale guys want to be less like 1:1 trucks than Comp guys? Get on course quick if you worry about degrading. Just walking the courses you could literally move rocks to help your truck...

A winch should be mandatory at a large event. Knowing how to use one efficiently is an art in itself.

So Harley could win because he could pay me to crawl terrible and set a mega DNF point out...genius way to keep things fair and fun

You can't afford Harley


Minimum? Now no new crawlers can join. Sorry guys with your stock Axials, only people willing to spend a lot of money on scale items, or well you can make them. Otherwise, sorry we don't want to grow, only see the same people who can pay or make parts.

I guess we agree on this one.

Show me a 1:1 class where when you add things to your truck you get more points? How many 1:1 rigs on a trail are packed with weird items, do they do it for Scale realism?

This isn't 1:1 and never will be.

Or hey, my truck sucks at crawling, but if I add more scale points I have a chance. It's not about the truck or driving, just adding scale points. Seems like that is best left to Show and Shine.

I know of at least 6 solid -50 point rigs that don't have ANY unnecessary scale items added to them. They are very scale looking and will perform like you wouldn't believe.

Why only 40? Could be any number, but it needs to be there.

I think 80-100 is reasonable.

If I DNF because a course designer runs a weird small truck in class 3 and all the Wraith based trucks can't fit. Doesn't sound like fun to us wraith owners. But I guess Wraiths aren't important....13" gate rules still exist.

I've seen people run Class 2 rigs in Class 3 and do pretty well, it's one of those decisions that you can make, and it's what makes it all so fun.

----

So I have 2 complaints that aren't addressed:

1: 13" gate widths and yet nothing to make that fair or fun to all the drivers or all the current axles on the market.

Answered above.

2: Why is the show and shine AFTER classes have to run and get beat up? I mean some of the rigs entered are basically static models. How can anyone even compete with that?

I personally think rigs are more beautiful after they get a few scratches.

My comments in yellow.

[binaryterror]

My issue with gate width is brought back to new drivers again. Class 3 is basically where a box stock Wraith ends up. That drivers truck is 11.3" wide. Leaving only 1.7" per gate set, less than an inch per side.

Now a more veteran crawler might run an AX10 axle and get more room. I get the idea of competition and making the choice of width based on scale rules and performance.

The problem is it still needs to be newbie centric. Meaning a stock RTR driver shouldn't be punished to have to drive more cleverly than a seasoned driver who thought about the width quandary and is likely a better driver based on experience.

Believe me I'll make my truck work, just trying to help shine a light on a problem a new guy with a Wraith will be penalized for.

This is my first scale event, so while I know how to crawl from the years of comp crawling, I still see some issues. I don't expect all of them to change, just doing my part as a participant to shine lights that others may not see.

[binaryterror]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

What everybody should do is step back and realize that almost everything being discussed are minor details on the whole. I guarantee that everybody had a blast at the event (wish I could have made it)

Online discussions can make it seem like the fun has already been drained, when in real life (IRL) everybody is still having fun.

John read my thoughts exactly. I can deal with all the issues brought up. I did so as I am new to scale crawling. Trying to help. Sometimes when a rules committee is run people miss the small details that might scare off the new guys, and we know all about that already. Or a rules committee is filled with the OG's who are engrained in a thought process and won't change.

And yes I had a blast. I had a blast when I thought I did terrible. Sure that moment when I found out I was in Top 5 and TTC I had more fun, but just the run time I got with the 3 courses was enough to have a blast and make me begin planning for next time.

[youngblood]

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

You sir get it, my sentiments exactly.

Completely agree. Binary T hit the nail on the head.

[mjderstine]

yeah, this is blown way out of proportion for sure. the event was an insanely positive experience, and gave me a shot in the arm for new ideas. more new fun trucks to build. new ways to do out local comps.

this is and was only supposed to be a discussion based on experiences from an even that had a large national/international audience. Since i started the thread,i can take full responsibility for any of the negative things said about ECSC. i commend John, and his team on doing this event. it is by far an event that you should go to if you have any interest at in this hobby.

All rules are meant to be broken, and bent. its just human nature. Just be glad our hobby doesnt pull in too many Lawyers... we would all be screwed.

that being said. lets try to keep ECSC out of this, as this should be a rule discussion only. i understand using examples from the event because there were a lot of us there who are very passionate about out rigs, and our runs. we all want to be competitive and have an equal competitive advantage on our fellow competitors when it comes to the rules we all must obey.

John was correct lets move on from the ECSC references, and lets start talking about the rules. Ask how we can help SORCA, ask for town meetings, organize conference calls. lets try to make this happen as the off season of winter approaches.

I would like to ask a moderator to remoce the ECSC part from the title of this thread if possible.