2015 Winching Rule

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by War Pig

Sounds like there might be a safety issue even without the winching rule.

There totally is, but that started the minute we started paying attention to toy trucks while we walk around on rocks.

[distinctive pd]

Im good either way because i see both sides here and both are valid points but we will always see a wide variety of skill sets at these events as long as tickets are sold openly instead of qualifying for a spot at this type of event. .. I think if the guys in charge see a need for safety at this location then we shouldn't think twice just for the sake of "scale" just my .02

[johnnyh66]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

One of the points of this rule though was to access more terrain at this location. There are some steep areas that this rule would allow us to use. Without this rule there is no way a rig could hold itself in place. And the driver will be keeping a hand on the trigger and the wheel or the rig will be tumbling down the hill. Of course we don't have to use these spots and won't if this rule doesn't stay in place, its just kind of a bummer.

Also judges will not be allowed to assist the driver in anyway, no grabbing the hook, holding a winch point, etc. There job will be to judge and keep time, thats it.

Well ya didn't say all that!
I don't really care... I was just thinking of the rats nest tangle that could be freed...
Maybe this: special exception to the rule in special area. Then people can use it if need be on a designated section of course.
I've been to comps where they gave you free reverses to do a 180... worked fine.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by johnnyh66

Well ya didn't say all that!
I don't really care... I was just thinking of the rats nest tangle that could be freed...
Maybe this: special exception to the rule in special area. Then people can use it if need be on a designated section of course.
I've been to comps where they gave you free reverses to do a 180... worked fine.

Along those lines, you could draw a boundary box where, when you were inside of it you could hold your rig.
We have had comps where we had spots to drive to then we would stop the clock for the driver to make their way around to another position. Sometimes staying on top of your rig just isn't possible.

[holycaveman]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

One of the points of this rule though was to access more terrain at this location. There are some steep areas that this rule would allow us to use. Without this rule there is no way a rig could hold itself in place. And the driver will be keeping a hand on the trigger and the wheel or the rig will be tumbling down the hill. Of course we don't have to use these spots and won't if this rule doesn't stay in place, its just kind of a bummer.

Also judges will not be allowed to assist the driver in anyway, no grabbing the hook, holding a winch point, etc. There job will be to judge and keep time, thats it.

Yea there was some left out info here!....

I would rather opt for the premium terrain. Hold that truck all you want.

[johnnyh66]

Hurry, delete the poll before it get's to 20!

[War Pig]

It sounds like this "additional terrain" may be a bit dangerous and a mandatory winch section? I don't know about you Ty, but when I'm planning an event I try to make the courses as safe as possible (nothing like worrying about 60+ guys out on treacherous terrain) and a minimum 50% course completion rate without needing a winch. It looks like there's plenty of good terrain at Red Rocks without getting too crazy, but you are organizing it so it's your call.

[ToyZuki]

I say use the tough terrain! If its crawl able with the exception of touching your rig, then its damn sure crawl able without touching your rig. This is a points game and the tough terrain and tough decisions with separate the good drivers from the not so good drivers. I in no way see how using my hand to secure a truck makes it safer for any driver. If the driver doesn't have a long enough winch line to setup his winch while parked in a safe place, then he is entering a competition that's beyond his level of building or driving and recievers a dnf

[holycaveman]

What about bonus gates? use the terrain for that. I always liked bonus gates

[ToyZuki]

Originally Posted by johnnyh66

Hurry, delete the poll before it get's to 20!

To late

[AJ.]

I'm of the opinion that we keep it how Ty and his group of event organizers want it, they know the terrain and have a game plan that we should respect and let them stick to. The judges should be capable of determining what is legitimate rig contact while winching is taking place.

[Crawl Space]

In agreement with poll results - winching is an important subset of driving skill that should be tested in a competition.

When I play disc golf with my buddies, I go by PDGA rules for penalties since "getting out of trouble" is a skill tested in real tournaments.

Similarly, when I scale with friends we often set up courses and uphold the SORCCA self-recovery rules. IME it makes scaling both more challenging and more rewarding. Get to know the limits of your truck and learn how to "get out of trouble." A good habit to get into

[TURTLE]

That's a fair assessment, but the rules do not cover the steps to a successful winch. Regardless we will go by the poll. So how are the guys with free spooling winches going to avoid holding their rigs?

[stroker613]

I guess we just get to see some carnage!!!!!

[ToyZuki]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

That's a fair assessment, but the rules do not cover the steps to a successful winch. Regardless we will go by the poll. So how are the guys with free spooling winches going to avoid holding their rigs?

Pushing a button with one finger doesn't seem like holding a rig to me. What I'm trying to avoid is what I saw last year. Someone knowing their not going to make it, and being prepared to jump out of driving mode and into winch mode! Basically preparing and catching the rig! Its only 1 pt. To reverse and settle your truck, then pull cable. Driving into trouble and using your hand to settle the truck quickly and pull cable is lame. I would go along with the hand of god rule if there was more wording to go with it. Can't touch the truck until you've committed and the judge acknowledges the winch! Touching the truck before acknowledged is a normal touch and repo'd. Or truck must hold its own before winch touch occurs. There's many ways it can be worded to keep it fair... Last year people were driving a bonus line on a course I was judging. Approaching the 18" climb knowing they probably weren't going to make it, keeping their hand inches from the rig to stop it from rolling, and calling "winch" as the rig lifted off the rock and "held it" while hooking up the winch. Very frustrating as a judge, knowing damn well they were taking advantage of the loose rule. I say ditch the hand of god and drive more conservative! If the rule passes at least make it clear to all drivers and judges what the intention of the rules is, and what is not acceptable.

[TURTLE]

I see no issue with the one finger releasing the winch, but I have never actually seen it take one finger. Many times it's guys grabbing the entire winch, holding it and tugging on it pretty vigorously. From all this conversation that sounds like a reposition...

And the poll is over, we will not be allowing people to hold their vehicles, I just want everyone to be clear on what constitutes a proper winch.

[hotwheels000]

Thank you again for your consideration of the opinions expressed.

Going over the details of proper winching at the drivers/judges meeting should clear up any questions.

As far as free spool goes, it just another challenge/skillset to be mastered. If your free spool is working correctly you will be able to pull the cable out with very minimal resistance. If it is so tight or resistant that the truck needs to be held, it hasn't spooled up correctly and that is the builders issue, not the free spool issue....TOUCH/REPO if you need to hold the truck is my opinion. Build it better next time driver

I read mention of a switch operated winch, not clear if that was just to turn it on/off to prevent drifting when not in use or if it was actually the means of actuating/initializing the winch. If it is the means of operation... That needs to be addressed also. Can the driver keep their hands on the switch while the truck is in motion ? or, turn on, release/remove hand while truck is in motion due to the winch action ? I would think it would be the later so no discrepancies occur.

[holycaveman]

I have two different free spools. One you push, and one you pull. And you have to hold the truck. The force it takes however little can easily push the truck.

It's just the small vehicles we are working with. It can't be helped.

If some guy want to give me a reposition for using my freespool then I will probably knock him off the rocks. That's my take anyways.

[holycaveman]

If a judge can not tell a difference between using a freespool, and intentionality holding a truck from falling. He has no buisness being a judge.

And I am not driving to Colorado to enter the winch skills master contest.

Let's keep things in perspective here. In 1:1 3 guys can't move a truck. In scale the slightest movement can easily move a rc.

I am all about following and upholding the rules. But let's keep it real.

[Crawl Space]

I have not used a freespool winch so I can't comment on what touching is necessary. However, I have unhooked a fair number of land anchors and I think a fair treatment of the issue would be that the judge needs to make sure the truck has not been "repositioned for advantage" between the time when winch was called (and the vehicle was at rest) to when the winch was hooked up to the winching point before activation. . e.g. if the vehicle is flipped on its roof and the winch line runs over the roof then the driver can remove the winch line and touch the vehicle to make sure he/she doesn't move the truck from the position where it lay when winch was called.

If no amount of touching is allowd except winch hook/switch/land anchor I could see this turning into a "winching skills competition" which it isn't; it's a scale driving competition that encompasses a small but important subset of recovery skills. Just my 2c