2015 Winching Rule

[Pancho]

Originally Posted by ToyZuki

Pushing a button with one finger doesn't seem like holding a rig to me. What I'm trying to avoid is what I saw last year. Someone knowing their not going to make it, and being prepared to jump out of driving mode and into winch mode! Basically preparing and catching the rig! Its only 1 pt. To reverse and settle your truck, then pull cable. Driving into trouble and using your hand to settle the truck quickly and pull cable is lame. I would go along with the hand of god rule if there was more wording to go with it. Can't touch the truck until you've committed and the judge acknowledges the winch! Touching the truck before acknowledged is a normal touch and repo'd. Or truck must hold its own before winch touch occurs. There's many ways it can be worded to keep it fair... Last year people were driving a bonus line on a course I was judging. Approaching the 18" climb knowing they probably weren't going to make it, keeping their hand inches from the rig to stop it from rolling, and calling "winch" as the rig lifted off the rock and "held it" while hooking up the winch. Very frustrating as a judge, knowing damn well they were taking advantage of the loose rule. I say ditch the hand of god and drive more conservative! If the rule passes at least make it clear to all drivers and judges what the intention of the rules is, and what is not acceptable.

I agree with most of your opinions on the winching rule. I also understand your frustration at the blatant misuse of the rules you witnessed last year. As one of the organizers of said event it is troubling that this happened. Granted my memory is not the best, But I am pretty sure this was discussed ,even debated, in the drivers meetings and surely was not a free pass to molest your truck. I believe the terminology used was you could "stabilize" your rig while hooking up your winch. One would also believe that people could differentiate between stabilizing and catching. Some people get it and some do not. For the ones that do not, the judge is there to help them understand. You as the judge had the ability to do something about it. If there is a dispute, get an official involved. If these issues were discussed with one of the officials at the time and nothing was done then we more than deserve the criticism. It was our responsibility as the event organizers to make sure the rules were understood and followed. Ultimately it is on us and all I can do at this time is apologize for our shortcomings and learn from our mistakes. No touch means no grey area to exploit, too bad thats what most of these problems come down to.



Time for someone to get on that no touch freespool winch.

[holycaveman]

Well actually I could use another channel to operate a servo to actuate the freespool. Then maybe one more to assist unhooking my pull pal so I don't have to physically touch the truck!

[Crawl Space]

Originally Posted by holycaveman

Well actually I could use another channel to operate a servo to actuate the freespool. Then maybe one more to assist unhooking my pull pal so I don't have to physically touch the truck!

No no, not scale at all! You need your driver to activate the winch while the passenger gets out and pulls the line



In all seriousness though I think that "stabilizing" your rig (after calling winch AND the vehicle has come to rest) while hooking/uhnooking winch line/land anchors is reasonable and does not yield a driver advantage.


@ Warpig & other PNW guys: What are your self-recovery rules and how do they affect drivers with on-vehicle winch switches and free-spool winches?

I've enjoyed many a Justinart24 warcrc video btw

[holycaveman]

LOL

Next time I hear in 1:1 where someone is crying about diving into a swamp to hook a cable up.

I will say "dude that ain't nothing. In scale we have to recover a truck without touching it!"

[sam63]

Originally Posted by Crawl Space

No no, not scale at all! You need your driver to activate the winch while the passenger gets out and pulls the line



In all seriousness though I think that "stabilizing" your rig (after calling winch AND the vehicle has come to rest) while hooking/uhnooking winch line/land anchors is reasonable and does not yield a driver advantage.


@ Warpig & other PNW guys: What are your self-recovery rules and how do they affect drivers with on-vehicle winch switches and free-spool winches?

I've enjoyed many a Justinart24 warcrc video btw

We never have to winch so its a non issue

But really, we winch a lot at times. Especially when the rocks are covered in gorilla snot.

I have seen winches activated by toggle switches and we don't call that a touch, or using a free spool with one hand on the rig, not a touch. As long as you are just running your winch and nothing funny is going on its all good. I have never seen this be a problem at our comps, but compared to warpig Im a noob.

If a driver is caught stabilizing the car its an automatic repo.

[hotwheels000]

Please by no means take my comment out of perspective, it was simply trying to illistrate the ease in which my experiences have been with freespool winches


I am curious to which free spool winch you and others use.


I only have experiance with 2 different quicksand winches, you can yank on those suckers and rip as many feet of line out as you have and the rig wont move as long as the line isnt tangled, rats nested or bound on it self.

Originally Posted by holycaveman

I have two different free spools. One you push, and one you pull. And you have to hold the truck. The force it takes however little can easily push the truck.

It's just the small vehicles we are working with. It can't be helped.

If some guy want to give me a reposition for using my freespool then I will probably knock him off the rocks. That's my take anyways.

[holycaveman]

I have the kms and ordering the 3r one.

I can do it with one hand. I am just saying if your truck is on loose ground or light on one end the whole truck can move or even slide off a ledge is you were not careful. So i hold a finger or two and push the actuater with the other finger. Technically I am holding the truck. But it's to actuate the winch.

You guys were worrying me a little. LOL

[hotwheels000]

Originally Posted by sam63

We never have to winch so its a non issue

But really, we winch a lot at times. Especially when the rocks are covered in gorilla snot.

I have seen winches activated by toggle switches and we don't call that a touch, or using a free spool with one hand on the rig, not a touch. As long as you are just running your winch and nothing funny is going on its all good. I have never seen this be a problem at our comps, but compared to warpig Im a noob.

If a driver is caught stabilizing the car its an automatic repo.

What he said^^^^^^^^^ i have only witnessed a blatent mis-use of the ability to touch the vehicle during the winch process one time. Vehicle was stable on its own, driver tried to pull winch line, it didnt unspool, he pressed harder on the rig to hold it in place whille tugging at the line physically squishing the tires..... I stepped in, as the judge was fairly new, politly told the driver that was a repo. NO PROBLEM, the driver was a friend and he new he had taken it to far and deserved the repo.

More common from new folks that are not accustomed to useing a winch in a comp scenerio.....are the below examples.

The biggest fail I see when people winch is moveing the rig.That happens mostly with 2 scenerios.

1) try to get to their hook out if it is under the rig or attached to the top of the roll bar

2) trying to pull cable out faster than the winch unspools thus moving the rig

Most in the PNW know and understand these scenerios are a no go.

[hotwheels000]

Originally Posted by holycaveman

I have the kms and ordering the 3r one.

I can do it with one hand. I am just saying if your truck is on loose ground or light on one end the whole truck can move or even slide off a ledge is you were not careful. So i hold a finger or two and push the actuater with the other finger. Technically I am holding the truck. But it's to actuate the winch.

You guys were worrying me a little. LOL

That right there is proper winching

[Crawl Space]

Originally Posted by hotwheels000

The biggest fail I see when people winch is moveing the rig.That happens mostly with 2 scenerios.

1) try to get to their hook out if it is under the rig or attached to the top of the roll bar

2) trying to pull cable out faster than the winch unspools thus moving the rig

Most in the PNW know and understand these scenerios are a no go.

Ah, so what is the right move when you're trying to get the winch line unhooked in this scenario? (say you are upside down and your winch line is attached at the rear bumper)

Can you pull the line out and make sure your rig doesn't move or does that count as a repo? Sorry if this is not a clear example.

[hotwheels000]

Originally Posted by Crawl Space

Ah, so what is the right move when you're trying to get the winch line unhooked in this scenario? (say you are upside down and your winch line is attached at the rear bumper)

Can you pull the line out and make sure your rig doesn't move or does that count as a repo? Sorry if this is not a clear example.

That will be up to the Colorado folks to decide

[bmuzz1]

If you can't get the line out cleanly I'd say take the rollover and move on or pull winch after.

[madscrambler]

Just make a winch 10 points done..

[Mr. LowBudget]

Well here's my 2cents, I'm going to have fun, play with toy trucks, see some of the most amazing built Scale RC toy trucks in the world, learn some more shiz and hang out with some really cool people that share the same passion that I have of building and playing with toy trucks YA TOAST YES TOAST

[Crawl Space]

Originally Posted by hotwheels000

That will be up to the Colorado folks to decide

Right, but if it was the same rules warcrc uses then stabilizing the rig while pulling the winch line from under the vehicle would result in a touch penalty yes?

Sorry, I just want to make sure I'm understanding the warcrc precedent with respect to the Colorado rules. I don't actually plan on being upside down a bunch

[War Pig]

At the ORCRC comps we are pretty lax, especially since we have a lot of newer guys at our monthly comps. We winch off our shoe laces (GASP!?!) and allow people to hold their vehicles if they need to. Most of the better drivers don't take liberties and do it the right way (to show the newer guys what they SHOULD be doing). I've also stopped hooking my winch over the top and just leave the hook hanging out of the fairlead, it's not worth the extra 2 second you save by having 12" of line out.

[ToyZuki]

Originally Posted by holycaveman

If a judge can not tell a difference between using a freespool, and intentionality holding a truck from falling. He has no buisness being a judge.

And I am not driving to Colorado to enter the winch skills master contest.

Let's keep things in perspective here. In 1:1 3 guys can't move a truck. In scale the slightest movement can easily move a rc.

I am all about following and upholding the rules. But let's keep it real.

I can tell the difference, but with a rule written so loosely I had no argument. As long as the driver said winch, he was winching and was aloud to hold his truck in place. 2 wheels on the ground or all 4. Holding your truck in place was aloud as long as you were winching. It was announced at the drivers meeting.

Originally Posted by holycaveman

I have two different free spools. One you push, and one you pull. And you have to hold the truck. The force it takes however little can easily push the truck.

It's just the small vehicles we are working with. It can't be helped.

If some guy want to give me a reposition for using my freespool then I will probably knock him off the rocks. That's my take anyways.

And that is exactly the attitude I got when I told a driver that holding his rig in a wheelie on an incline while winching, was different than holding it on flat ground. He was right, holding while winching was allowed and how he was holding it was not breaking any rules as long as he winched! Learn to respect your judge!

Originally Posted by Pancho

I agree with most of your opinions on the winching rule. I also understand your frustration at the blatant misuse of the rules you witnessed last year. As one of the organizers of said event it is troubling that this happened. Granted my memory is not the best, But I am pretty sure this was discussed ,even debated, in the drivers meetings and surely was not a free pass to molest your truck. I believe the terminology used was you could "stabilize" your rig while hooking up your winch. One would also believe that people could differentiate between stabilizing and catching. Some people get it and some do not. For the ones that do not, the judge is there to help them understand. You as the judge had the ability to do something about it. If there is a dispute, get an official involved. If these issues were discussed with one of the officials at the time and nothing was done then we more than deserve the criticism. It was our responsibility as the event organizers to make sure the rules were understood and followed. Ultimately it is on us and all I can do at this time is apologize for our shortcomings and learn from our mistakes. No touch means no grey area to exploit, too bad thats what most of these problems come down to.



Time for someone to get on that no touch freespool winch.

Don't get me wrong! The Utah crew put on one of the best RC events I've ever been to. I enjoyed every minute of the event from the heat of the day Friday to the frozen wet snow on Saturday! Met tons of awesome people and got to compete with some of the best drivers I've ever played toy trucks with! As a judge when I challenged a driver that he saved his rig from a roll over, he argued that he was allowed to because he was winching and called "winch" before he touched his rig! There was no argument! He was right! He read between the lines and got away with it! He outsmarted me and the rules. 3 more drivers did the same thing in the same part of the course. All were judged equally weather I agreed with the rule or not!


I understand all the points that are being made here and I don't disagree. I've seen people hold their rigs in place to get the winch out of a rats nest, get their line out from underneath (not including the hook! If you can't reach your hook your hosed!) Using a quick release is fine! Those things have always been unspoken and OK. Holding a rig planted because it is on unstable ground however is driver error, no different than hitting a gate, and points should be awarded. The wording of the rule is my issue! Huge grey area that everyone here knows the intension of the rule, but knows that it can and will be abused if its not a full paragraph of bs that specifies how and when it is aloud.

Didn't mean to start a pissing match or hurt anyone's feelers.

[hotwheels000]

Originally Posted by Crawl Space

Right, but if it was the same rules warcrc uses then stabilizing the rig while pulling the winch line from under the vehicle would result in a touch penalty yes?

Sorry, I just want to make sure I'm understanding the warcrc precedent with respect to the Colorado rules. I don't actually plan on being upside down a bunch

Originally Posted by War Pig

At the ORCRC comps we are pretty lax, especially since we have a lot of newer guys at our monthly comps. We winch off our shoe laces (GASP!?!) and allow people to hold their vehicles if they need to. Most of the better drivers don't take liberties and do it the right way (to show the newer guys what they SHOULD be doing). I've also stopped hooking my winch over the top and just leave the hook hanging out of the fairlead, it's not worth the extra 2 second you save by having 12" of line out.

Short answer, yes it would be a penalty.The driver has a choice as to how they route/secure the winch line to the truck before they begin their run. Each of the many ways has its advantages and disadvantages.
Piggy answered it well,WARCRC and ORCRC follow the same ruleset and have the same mentality and mindset when it comes to them.WARCRC top drivers or veterans do not hold the rig steady for any reason and are giving a 10 point repo if doing so. Same goes for any additional movement cuased by fiddling with the winch line. We are just having fun at club events, new folks are cut a lot of slack and educated on the rules and the reasons behind them. The PNW usually has a decent amount of people at the scale nats so the club tries to prepare according with its members that wish to compete at the national level

[Crawl Space]

Great responses guys - just what I was wanting to be clarified

[madscrambler]

Any updates on this? I still think it needs to be up to judges. This is a sport and in sports you have to have judges or Refs. That can call out those who don't follow the rules.