I will Take 20 points and pass

[soundcolor]

I think that before a course design should be considered it should be driven by the judges with a "standard" vehicle. Sort of a measuring stick. (by standard, I do not mean stock, just a rig that is built fairly well and is capable). That is the only way to know for sure if it can or cannot be done.

We can all sit here for the rest of eternity and go back and forth over the meanings and whatnot. But the bottom line is, if the course isn't being crawled before the first competitor rolls to the line then there is no way of knowing if any of it is even possible. I have swore up and down alot of times that I could crawl a particular line and just not been able to do it. Other times I have pulled off insane lines that I thought I never would have been able to do.

Yes, course designers are good at what they do, and we get some really creative lines. But, if it cannot be done, then it cannot be done. Also, be pre-determining that it can be done then there is no excuse for "tapping out".

So, I say let them design the course, and run the whole thing, once its decided that it can be done, then there are no more questions about it. Either you sucked it up, or your rig just wasn't capable. End of story.

I do think there should be a novice class to, one that limits the modifications to the rig.

Just my .002

[sloppy]

so you are saying that the judge's in your area drive better then you do..

impossible lines are what keep people working on there trucks.. 2 years ago 80% of the course that we run today would have been "impossible" but truck get better drivers get better.. the tap out is there to help new people along.. hell I would quit all together if I could just walk threw a course..

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

In the 3 years that I've been building courses for the 2 clubs I run in. we have never pre ran a course. A good course will have a way to stradle the gate if it can't be done. I can only think of 1 time we built a course that no one finished, but I can think of a lot of times where only a few finshed a tuff course ,showing it was doable.

[soundcolor]

Surely, I am not the only person in the world that has pulled up to a rock/boulder/obstical and thought... "no problem, this wont even be tough to climb"
only to find out that either I really suck, my rig really sucks, or that maybe it just cant be done.
Everyone of us that has been crawling for more than five minutes have eased up to what should have been a cake crawl, only to get about halfway up, and realize there was a small dip, or offset in the rock that is catching that rear tire and causing us to flip over backwards. I know that I cannot be the only person that has ever crawled a gultch or split and from the looks of it, it looked like the truck would stradle it with ease, only to hit that one part that was just wide enough to swallow the hole rig.
Hell, there are tons of unforeseeables in a course that you just dont notice, or cant see until you actually run it through a couple of times.

Why should a course be created that cannot be completed.
I would rather face an insanely hard course that beat the hell out of me and my rig and not be able to do it because either I, or my rig just wasn't capable, than I would waste my time on something that was impossible to do to begin with.

Dont get me wrong, I have seen times when I swore something could not be done, and someone ease right up to it and walk all over it. Then there have been times when I have told other people... "hey, it just cannot be done" only to be told... Yes it can... I can do it.... Only to sit and waste my time watching someone fail misserably doing something that couldn't have been done in the first place.


So, yeah, i would like to know before I walk into a situation wether or not it can be done.

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Originally Posted by soundcolor

Surely, I am not the only person in the world that has pulled up to a rock/boulder/obstical and thought... "no problem, this wont even be tough to climb"
only to find out that either I really suck, my rig really sucks, or that maybe it just cant be done.
Everyone of us that has been crawling for more than five minutes have eased up to what should have been a cake crawl, only to get about halfway up, and realize there was a small dip, or offset in the rock that is catching that rear tire and causing us to flip over backwards. I know that I cannot be the only person that has ever crawled a gultch or split and from the looks of it, it looked like the truck would stradle it with ease, only to hit that one part that was just wide enough to swallow the hole rig.
Hell, there are tons of unforeseeables in a course that you just dont notice, or cant see until you actually run it through a couple of times.

Why should a course be created that cannot be completed.
I would rather face an insanely hard course that beat the hell out of me and my rig and not be able to do it because either I, or my rig just wasn't capable, than I would waste my time on something that was impossible to do to begin with.

Dont get me wrong, I have seen times when I swore something could not be done, and someone ease right up to it and walk all over it. Then there have been times when I have told other people... "hey, it just cannot be done" only to be told... Yes it can... I can do it.... Only to sit and waste my time watching someone fail misserably doing something that couldn't have been done in the first place.


So, yeah, i would like to know before I walk into a situation wether or not it can be done.

It all in where you put the cones.

You said it yourself,
(Hell, there are tons of unforeseeables in a course that you just dont notice, or cant see until you actually run it through a couple of times.)
A good course builder runs through it in his mind and so does a good driver. Just don't go 1st a watch and learn,

[soundcolor]

Amen to that

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by soundcolor

I think that before a course design should be considered it should be driven by the judges with a "standard" vehicle. Sort of a measuring stick. (by standard, I do not mean stock, just a rig that is built fairly well and is capable). That is the only way to know for sure if it can or cannot be done.

We can all sit here for the rest of eternity and go back and forth over the meanings and whatnot. But the bottom line is, if the course isn't being crawled before the first competitor rolls to the line then there is no way of knowing if any of it is even possible. I have swore up and down alot of times that I could crawl a particular line and just not been able to do it. Other times I have pulled off insane lines that I thought I never would have been able to do.

Yes, course designers are good at what they do, and we get some really creative lines. But, if it cannot be done, then it cannot be done. Also, be pre-determining that it can be done then there is no excuse for "tapping out".

So, I say let them design the course, and run the whole thing, once its decided that it can be done, then there are no more questions about it. Either you sucked it up, or your rig just wasn't capable. End of story.

I do think there should be a novice class to, one that limits the modifications to the rig.

Just my .002

Man, remind me to never judge a comp you run. Hey would you like to judge all day and not get to compete because you pre-ran the courses? Uh, I'll pass.

I don't think it's an issue for the clubs I've competed with. We've had some tuff courses that only a handful can complete, and 1 last year that it took a lucky bounce for the one and only guy to complete. Generally speaking if only a couple finish a course it was still "do-able" though. At a minimum it's a good idea to walk someone else with experience through your course for a 2nd opinion.

[EvilTwin v2]

So, you're proposing that the judges not be allowed to compete? One key rule is that you're not allowed to pre-run the course.

2nd problem with your idea is that different crawlers can handle different lines, depending on many factors. There is one line at our local comp spot that I'd not seen anybody make. After changing the weight distribution on my Bully tuber, I was able to do it easily the last time I was there. So, how would you choose which crawler can make it.

Pre-running the course is a bad idea, period. Course builders simply need to be able to learn from their mistakes and accomplishments. We have a couple great course designers in our club. They still misjudge the difficulty of a gate from time to time, but they always try to look back on the course, and consider all factors when designing the next one.

Basically, people, this is a competition. It's not meant to be a "lets hold hands and sing Kumbaya" day on the rocks.

What our club has done is to seperate into 2 classes; Amateur and Pro. There are a couple splits through the course in which the pros have an extremely difficult line and amateurs is a bit easier. We keep series points seperately for the 2 classes, but amateurs do not qualify for invitation to regional, national or world events. The am class uses the standard 20pt gate rule, where the pro does not, and there's a different time limit per class. This has kept the interest up for the newer and/or less serious competitors, yet allowed for very difficult courses for the pro level competitors.

Originally Posted by soundcolor

I think that before a course design should be considered it should be driven by the judges with a "standard" vehicle. Sort of a measuring stick. (by standard, I do not mean stock, just a rig that is built fairly well and is capable). That is the only way to know for sure if it can or cannot be done.

We can all sit here for the rest of eternity and go back and forth over the meanings and whatnot. But the bottom line is, if the course isn't being crawled before the first competitor rolls to the line then there is no way of knowing if any of it is even possible. I have swore up and down alot of times that I could crawl a particular line and just not been able to do it. Other times I have pulled off insane lines that I thought I never would have been able to do.

Yes, course designers are good at what they do, and we get some really creative lines. But, if it cannot be done, then it cannot be done. Also, be pre-determining that it can be done then there is no excuse for "tapping out".

So, I say let them design the course, and run the whole thing, once its decided that it can be done, then there are no more questions about it. Either you sucked it up, or your rig just wasn't capable. End of story.

I do think there should be a novice class to, one that limits the modifications to the rig.

Just my .002

[Fishmaxx]

I don't know why everyone is getting so fired up. Its a "OPTIONAL" rule. If you don't like it don't use it...plain and simple.

SERCRC/RCA has used the 20 bypass for years, and it hasn't hurt us one bit (4x National Champs, and numerous other major titles) Along with proper gate placement it allows you to build some very difficult courses. Better drivers rarely use it ....I think in 2 years I have seen Austin use it once. The better divers know Austins propbably not taking one, so if they want to win the better not either. At the same time it allows noobs to drive more of the course.

If you don't think what I am saying makes sense then follow the "We are not here to see who can carry our trucks" philosophy

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

If you don't think what I am saying makes sense then follow the "We are not here to see who can carry our trucks" philosophy

I, honestly, don't care if somebody if somebody points out on a gate, or if the rules allow it or not. I'll try to strategize my run as best I can within the rules of the comp. If that means taking a gate penalty in order to progress, then so be it. That said, I won't do it unless I feel that I absolutely have to for the win.

I personally like the 20pt rule for smaller comps...at least for a novice or amateur class. It keeps the newbs and less serious people coming out. If you piss off 1/2 the competitors, it won't take long before people stop coming.

We need to attract people to this hobby, not scare them away.