Steering Improvements

[spookyseven]

The panhard bar keeps the axle centered within the chassis.

A panhard bar actually moves the axle left/right as the suspension cycles. With a panhard you are trying to move the axle left/right at the same rate as the drag link to eliminate bump steer. Triangulated 4-links, Y links (sometimes called a wishbone) are designed to keep the axle centered.

*"watts" or "6 link" also are designed to keep the axle centered but the design isn't very useful for rock crawlers

Length does not matter...a 1:1 jeep has a track bar(panhard) that is not the same length as a the connecting tie rods...the steering gear box is mounted the same way on the left frame...length doesnt mean crap...being parallel does when you are using a servo...
...if length made the difference...why is mine working with no issues...

I disagree with this entire post. It depends on your definition of "working with no issues." If your definition of "working with no issues" is being able to drive a toy truck around, sure you can use panhard bar and drag link that are different lengths but at that point you might as well not bother making them the same angle because they are equally important. If your definition of "working with no issues" is being able to cycle your suspension without bump steer they need to be the same length and same angle. Don't believe me? Grab two different length links and a sheet of graph paper. Pin one end to the paper and trace the arcs created by the other end. Since the links are not the same lengh they will not move the same distance horizontally when moved vertically.

Secondly when trying to explain 3 links and panhard bars, 1:1 jeeps are a craptastic example to use. I know with older jeeps such as the xj, they use some sort of 4 link+panhard ("track bar")+combined tie rod/drag link thingy. Most likely the only reason they work is they have rubber bushings that allow for enough play in the links instead of binding up.

 

[allanon1965]

I wont muddy up this thread any longer..but as i leave why dont you explain in detail why they MUST be the same length when i have shown you two examples why they dont.

And dont worry your precious little self about me asking questions...i have been an ase certified automotive tech for over 30 years....i know a little bit about suspension geometry and how it works.

When they move... they move in the same arc as long as they are parallel....not parallel..different arcs....length doesnt matter...
Also if i remove the panhard or track bar from the jeep it will have all kinds of bump steer and the body will move back and forth when trying to turn...therefore reducing the turning radius....have a nice day and go threaten someone who actually cares what you have to say..double j

To the OP...my apologies for derailing your thread by attempting to show what actually works and getting into a p***ing match with people who have agendas on this site. Hope you get it all worked out

 

[spookyseven]

I understand that tone is hard to judge through text but I did not in any way try to start a pissing match.

explain in detail why they MUST be the same length when i have shown you two examples why they dont.

Panhard bar and drag link need to be the same length and the same angle in order to eleminate bump steer when cycling the suspension up and down. You need the move the axle and the steering knuckle left/right at the same rate when the suspension cycles up and down.

One of the examples you gave was a jeep that doesn't have the exact same type of suspension that is used on these rc trucks. The other example you gave is your rc truck. Does it "work" in the sense that you can effectively drive it over rocks? Sure. Does it "work" in the sense that you have zero bump steer? Probably not. It depends on how picky you want to get.

And dont worry your precious little self about me asking questions...i have been an ase certified automotive tech for over 30 years....i know a little bit about suspension geometry and how it works.

Whoopty do.

Also if i remove the panhard or track bar from the jeep it will have all kinds of bump steer and the body will move back and forth when trying to turn...therefore reducing the turning radius...

This is correct. A jeep without a track bar would be pretty useless. However I never said anything about removing the track bar/panhard bar.

have a nice day and go threaten someone who actually cares what you have to say..

I didn't threaten anybody, I simply stated I didn't agree with you and presented why.

To the OP...my apologies for derailing your thread by attempting to show what actually works and getting into a p***ing match with people who have agendas on this site. Hope you get it all worked out

 

[WHITE-TRASH]

I wont muddy up this thread any longer..but as i leave why dont you explain in detail why they MUST be the same length when i have shown you two examples why they dont.

And dont worry your precious little self about me asking questions...i have been an ase certified automotive tech for over 30 years....i know a little bit about suspension geometry and how it works.

When they move... they move in the same arc as long as they are parallel....not parallel..different arcs....length doesnt matter...
Also if i remove the panhard or track bar from the jeep it will have all kinds of bump steer and the body will move back and forth when trying to turn...therefore reducing the turning radius....have a nice day and go threaten someone who actually cares what you have to say..double j

To the OP...my apologies for derailing your thread by attempting to show what actually works and getting into a p***ing match with people who have agendas on this site. Hope you get it all worked out

30 years eh? How's the retirement package at jiffy lube treating you? :lmao:


If you can't grasp the simple concept of the relationship between a panhard bar vs drag link geometry you should probably just walk away. ;-)

 

[Trail Blazer]

Hey fellers, let's relax,try to respect each other and their opinions, from what I have read u all have points that are valid to some point, "thumbsup" in the end the more points here the less some one like me has to go searching other threads, I would like to thank all you guys for you info so far it's been invaluable to me"thumbsup""thumbsup"

 

[6sharky9]

I would have to say I'm stumped why his tire is already rubbing on the shock with stock steering radius..I have larger diameter shocks and I'm guessing slightly wider tires than the ripsaws with my shocks leaned down even further than his and still clear the springs.

Those look like king shocks and they aren't much bigger in diameter than stock shocks if I'm correct.

Also I improved my steering angle by a few degrees as well which should have me rubbing badly at full turn from hitting the shock but it's not.

I guess I should ask if the tire hits the spring on the otherside when turning in the opposite direction as well?

If it doesn't it may be the servo not centered or the servo horn off a few teeth...if it does then I'll just shrug...lol

I'm requesting more detailed pics of the front end..lol

 

[sam63]

Hey fellers, let's relax,try to respect each other and their opinions, from what I have read u all have points that are valid to some point, "thumbsup" in the end the more points here the less some one like me has to go searching other threads, I would like to thank all you guys for you info so far it's been invaluable to me"thumbsup""thumbsup"

I'm sorry but there is a big difference between opinion and fact. When I comes to geometry ...which is what we are talking about here....there is no room for opinions, its just facts. Saying a panhard bar and drag link not being the same length works just fine is just plain wrong. A lot of people just wont understand it until they experiment for themselves. Kind of like the guy who runs a cms with a triangulated 4-link and says "it works just fine." Of course that would actually work as long as the suspension never moves:lmao:

 

[rcwolf]

I'm sorry but there is a big difference between opinion and fact. When I comes to geometry ...which is what we are talking about here....there is no room for opinions, its just facts. Saying a panhard bar and drag link not being the same length works just fine is just plain wrong. A lot of people just wont understand it until they experiment for themselves. Kind of like the guy who runs a cms with a triangulated 4-link and says "it works just fine." Of course that would actually work as long as the suspension never moves:lmao:

You live close enough to me that you can take a look at my suspension/steering and tell me where you see it not working fine. I'm getting tired of being told that my steering doesn't work properly. It works just fine thank you very much.. the bump steer is so little it doesn't move the tires at all.

 

[rcwolf]

I would have to say I'm stumped why his tire is already rubbing on the shock with stock steering radius..I have larger diameter shocks and I'm guessing slightly wider tires than the ripsaws with my shocks leaned down even further than his and still clear the springs.

Those look like king shocks and they aren't much bigger in diameter than stock shocks if I'm correct.

Also I improved my steering angle by a few degrees as well which should have me rubbing badly at full turn from hitting the shock but it's not.

I cant understand why your stumped.. My son's stock scx 10 honcho does the same thing with stock steering when the suspension is at full flex.. I posted pics.

 

[Trail Blazer]

You live close enough to me that you can take a look at my suspension/steering and tell me where you see it not working fine. I'm getting tired of being told that my steering doesn't work properly. It works just fine thank you very much.. the bump steer is so little it doesn't move the tires at all.

This is exactly what my post was about, not offending each other and people who are actively trying help, wolf has no reason to mislead us, I don't think, I wouldn't think he would b saying it works if it doesn't work, maybe wolf, and this is up to you a short video or pics of your rig in action,"thumbsup"

 

[6sharky9]

I cant understand why your stumped.. My son's stock scx 10 honcho does the same thing with stock steering when the suspension is at full flex.. I posted pics.

I saw them...I just don't recall mine having that same result..ill look mine over again..maybe missing something I didn't check.

 

[Hammer!]

Thank you for all your help everyone, i really appreciate it. Now, I think ive decided on the rc4wd panhard/cms, however, I've got a few questions (yes, more questions lol). The kit comes with a steering link and tie rod, but would do i do if i want to run vp 8* knuckles or hi-clearance knuckles...I would need different lengths. I planned on getting bluemonkey titanium steering links, but could i still use these?

 

[rcwolf]

I saw them...I just don't recall mine having that same result..ill look mine over again..maybe missing something I didn't check.

Well his is brand new.. only ran yesterday and today stock rtr.

 

[Trail Blazer]

Maybe this will help,posted by duuuuude in another thread

I'm playing with a panhard bar on my build, and I have been using War Pig's build for reference.

You might try these...

Panhard rod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

panhard bar

Keep in mind that when you add a panhard bar to the front, the bar and the steering rod need to run in the same plane, that is, they need to stay as parallel as possible throughout the suspension cycle. Otherwise you will get bumpsteer, which means that as the suspension compresses or extends, the wheels will turn a bit to the left or right.

 

[Hammer!]

Ok I've made a final decision on parts. RC4WD CMS/Panhard, Vanquish Stage 1 Kit, Axial UD gears for the rear, BlueMonkeyRC titanium steering links (for VP 8* knuckles) and also RC4WD's CVD's (later though)

 

[rcwolf]

Ok I've made a final decision on parts. RC4WD CMS/Panhard, Vanquish Stage 1 Kit, Axial UD gears for the rear, BlueMonkeyRC titanium steering links (for VP 8* knuckles) and also RC4WD's CVD's (later though)

Not to rain on your parade.. but does Vanquish still make that kit? if you find one make sure it says for scx10 not for wraith.

I hope everything works out with your build

 

[Hammer!]

well as soon as i figure out what to do, you stamp on my soul! lol, just joking, they do still make it, its on their website. c-hubs, lockouts and 8 degree knuckles. "thumbsup"

 

[Johnnysplits]

Does anyone really think a minor amount of bump steer in a 4x4 running off road makes any difference in 1/10 scale? My rig has just over 1/8" of bump steer...is it noticed while running...no.

 

[Hammer!]

good point lol

 

[doublej]

Does anyone really think a minor amount of bump steer in a 4x4 running off road makes any difference in 1/10 scale? My rig has just over 1/8" of bump steer...is it noticed while running...no.

It's not weather or not it's noticed - it's weather or not you want it "right".
Some of us just don't want to stop building till we know the rig is setup how we want.
And fixing that 1/8 of bump steer could be a simple as shaving 1/8 off the length of a link, or making a new link - so why not?