Fwck gun control

[Crimson Rock Crawler]

Looks to me to be the #2 version !!!

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Originally Posted by Deerhurst

couldnt resist:

It the looks of the assault rifle that scares people.

[Duuuuuuuude]

I can swing that.......but its not what the constiution says.
the problem is when you say this person os ok to not have the right
then I say that person shouldnt have the right
and so on......then it never gets betetr just worse.

IMO certain constitutional rights should be denied to you if you choose to act irresponsibly or are unable to be responsible in their regard. It does not even have to be a criminal act.

Anyone with a history of violence, serious drug abuse, or serious emotional instability does not have the capacity to responsibly own a weapon. I would even stretch that out to the households where those people reside.

[RANOVRU]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

IMO certain constitutional rights should be denied to you if you choose to act irresponsibly or are unable to be responsible in their regard. It does not even have to be a criminal act.

Anyone with a history of violence, serious drug abuse, or serious emotional instability does not have the capacity to responsibly own a weapon. I would even stretch that out to the households where those people reside.

That is an extremely general/broad statement to make. Hell, I would put lot of church-goers that I know in the "serious emotional instability" catagory.

The problem lies in whos/whats to determine that. Obviously things like criminal convictions would be more defined.

[ghtpdm5]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

IMO certain constitutional rights should be denied to you if you choose to act irresponsibly or are unable to be responsible in their regard. It does not even have to be a criminal act.

Anyone with a history of violence, serious drug abuse, or serious emotional instability does not have the capacity to responsibly own a weapon. I would even stretch that out to the households where those people reside.

i will stand by this whole-heartedly. i've stated earlier in this thread my mental health matters, and i know a lot of people that are as or more unstable than me with a ton of guns and other weaponry.

i've been hospitalized twice for suicidal tendencies, once was with a loaded shotgun sitting on my table. should it be right that i can go out and buy more guns? i'm not sure, and if i did, i would store the gun at a friend's house where it is secure and out of impulsive reach.

and as far as the therapy vs. medication route:

medications should be used in supplement to therapy, not as a replacement. i'm on meds, i still see a couple different therapists on a regular basis. the pill does not fix the underlying issue, it corrects a chemical imbalance. i still have days that i'm so anxious that leaving the house is down right hard. i still have manic days, and depressed days. going to therapy and grinding stuff out is something that needs to happen for me, or i just go into a feedback loop on the stuff i'm thinking about, that the meds don't touch.

[microgoat]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Anyone with a history of violence, serious drug abuse, or serious emotional instability does not have the capacity to responsibly own a weapon. I would even stretch that out to the households where those people reside.

This is why so many kids are being diagnosed with ADHD when they're just being kids. They've got a mental illness, no guns for you!

Look for much broader definitions of mental illness in the coming years. Speeding ticket? That's anti-social tendencies and poor impulse control. No gun for you either, Mr. Andretti.

[RANOVRU]

Originally Posted by ghtpdm5

i will stand by this whole-heartedly. i've stated earlier in this thread my mental health matters, and i know a lot of people that are as or more unstable than me with a ton of guns and other weaponry.

i've been hospitalized twice for suicidal tendencies, once was with a loaded shotgun sitting on my table. should it be right that i can go out and buy more guns? i'm not sure, and if i did, i would store the gun at a friend's house where it is secure and out of impulsive reach.

According to Duuudes statement, and probably others views, no you should not be allowed a firearm, given what youve stated about your background.

Problem is, there are a lot of people who havent been diagnosed and dont have a background, that would probably meet the same criteria.


The people who would actually step up and admit/say, "I dont need to have a firearm around" are few and far.

[cbr6fs]

Originally Posted by ecoli

What if, what if, what if? Aside from the control of problem dogs/animals, I fail to see any real reason for your gun ownership. Living in fear that you might get car jacked, living in fear that you might have an intruder. Hell, there's tons of driving related deaths here every year. By that thinking, I should probably just avoid the roads altogether, "just in case".

I respect your right to ownership of guns. However, admitting that you have them lying about, loaded and ready to go really does nothing to help promote responsible gun ownership and everything to give fodder for the gun control radicals to say "see, this is just an accident waiting to happen and why stricter gun laws are needed".

I do agree with you.

Problem is for us non Americans is we are not subjected to the same media as many as these guys on here.

A good mate of mine is an ex army ranger, i'm no ***** but there is no way i'd stand and punch ot out with this guy.
Funny thing is, when he came to stay at my place in England the guy was walking around absolutely shitting himself cause he wasn't carrying a firearm.

Such a tough guy yet by far one of the most insecure i've met.
We sat and talked about one night over a few beers, as was usual in my home town of Nottingham then there were a few fights in the bar.
We both agreed that if most of the inhabitants of the bar were carrying firearms some would not have made it home that night.

I've been to stay with him a few times since and he has gradually come around to being less insecure.
He now keeps ALL his firearms in a safe

I think it's easy for us non Americans to judge all this insecurity often on guys that on the outside give a "tough guy" image, but when it's fear is streamed out constantly through local media it's pretty much the only reaction your going to get.

I'm on a few bushcraft/survival forums and have a guy i've been talking with for a few years in Texas.
This guy is absolutely certain the world is going to end, he has invested thousands and thousands of dollars of prep stuff and has more guns and ammunition than most UK police stations.
Funny thing is though he's around 400lbs, does absolutely no exercise, is diabetic and has extremely bad asthma.

Again i've talked to him and offered him my opinions, but he just can't get in his head what the real threat is and how small a chance his perceived threat is.

It would be interesting to read how many ops on here have needed to shoot or draw their weapon in civilian life.
My guess is less than 1%

So if less than 1% have NEEDED a gun for personal safety it does kinda make you think how exaggerated is the real threat and who exactly gains from this exaggeration?
If it was me i'd be pretty pissed that i'd fallen for such a commercial sucker punch.

Do i think guns should be banned = nope
I love shooting and love hunting

Do i think that the US needs a state to state consistent control over weapon buying = yep

Do i think that each gin license should involve a background check AND a cop going to the home to check they have a gun safe and sufficient security = yep

End of the day it might or it might not prevent a tragedy like this happening again BUT if keeping my gns locked in a safe, reduces the chance of 6 and 7 year old kids being shot on mass in the future by even 0.01% personally that's a compromise i'd be willing to take.

[ghtpdm5]

aye, but the fact is that if i want a new shotgun for doing some trap shooting, i can go get one. i may be one of the few that will step up and say that i should be under far harsher critique than the general populous, i have a history, and i still was able to have a new shotgun under my arm the same day when i was buying a varmint gun (again, i have no clue where it is, but that's beside the point).

and the staggering amount of un-diagnosed people scares the fawk out of me. both hospital trips i met someone that was completely normal until that one day. now this was according to them (how much can you trust it, i dunno) but living the average suburban life, good job, wife, kids, etc. and the one day...

a lot of the adhd is just kids being kids imo, i know when i was a kid attention was hard to spare. but i dealt with some heavy depression for a long time without letting anyone know, and that one day....

sadly, there is no way to screen everyone that buys a firearm to suss out the people with hidden mental issues, and i don't know if there ever will be a day its possible. if i get popped on a background check and get rejected on another firearms purchase, i'll frankly be happy that there is a system out there that is working.

[cbr6fs]

Originally Posted by ghtpdm5

sadly, there is no way to screen everyone that buys a firearm to suss out the people with hidden mental issues, and i don't know if there ever will be a day its possible. if i get popped on a background check and get rejected on another firearms purchase, i'll frankly be happy that there is a system out there that is working.

Agreed, so logically you'd say that if that was the case as a society we would limit the amount of damage a person could do if they flipped.

A semi automatic assault rifle = a LOT of damage + it's not much good for hunting

A pump action shotgun = a LOT of damage, good for hunting though

A double barrelled shotgun = a LOT of damage but needs a LOT of reloading so overall less damage + it's still great for hunting, if 2 barrels doesn't put down what your hunting then your a crap shot


We could ban guns, knives, cars, alcohol etc tomorrow but STILL as a species we would find ways to kill and maim each other.

If you absolutely want to kill someone you WILL find a way no matter what's legal or not.

My point is, if semi automatic multi bullet weapons are around in the general public this sort of tragedy is going to happen again and again and again.
If this person hadn't had access to semi automatic big mag weapons then the more kids would have been home to their parents that night.

If the kid had say a double barrelled shotgun then i'm sure there would have still been deaths, i don't think any reasonable person would argue that there would have been a LOT less.

And that's the way i see it.
People like that have existed since humans first walked the earth and they'll be here till the day we are extinct.
We as a society NEED to make compromises to limit the amount of damage these people will do.
If that means a small inconvenience of a cop coming round to check you have sufficient security i'm fine with that.
If that means keeping all guns locked when not in use, again small price to pay.

Anyone that doesn't agree with such minor controls has absolutely no hold on reality and the real suffering these and many many many others are going to go through because of their small minded stubbornness.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

IMO certain constitutional rights should be denied to you if you choose to act irresponsibly or are unable to be responsible in their regard. It does not even have to be a criminal act.

Anyone with a history of violence, serious drug abuse, or serious emotional instability does not have the capacity to responsibly own a weapon. I would even stretch that out to the households where those people reside.

what consitutes violence.

I was in alot of fights as a youth....mostly cuz of the area I resided.
Once I moved to teh country, no more trouble.

would those fights be worthy of removing my rights?


when you threaten removing ones rights cuz of mental health.
you are not promoting an invoroment that pursuades a person to seek help.

Also, mental health can be interpreted.....2-3-4 different doctors could have various opinions.....patients are misdiagnoosed alot for this reason.
medicine is a practice......alwasy impproving ( like science ) but still
alot of edjucated "guesses" involved.

the world willl never be perfect
we cant provent the violent tendencies of some
Can be gun, knife, arson, robery, car jacking, ect,ect, ect.
best we can do is be prepared, and hope to react properly under
the pressure of such events.
and not let the events that unfold in the world around us, change who we are and what we stand for/believe in.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by cbr6fs

Agreed, so logically you'd say that if that was the case as a society we would limit the amount of damage a person could do if they flipped.

A semi automatic assault rifle = a LOT of damage + it's not much good for hunting

A pump action shotgun = a LOT of damage, good for hunting though

A double barrelled shotgun = a LOT of damage but needs a LOT of reloading so overall less damage + it's still great for hunting, if 2 barrels doesn't put down what your hunting then your a crap shot


We could ban guns, knives, cars, alcohol etc tomorrow but STILL as a species we would find ways to kill and maim each other.

If you absolutely want to kill someone you WILL find a way no matter what's legal or not.

My point is, if semi automatic multi bullet weapons are around in the general public this sort of tragedy is going to happen again and again and again.
If this person hadn't had access to semi automatic big mag weapons then the more kids would have been home to their parents that night.

If the kid had say a double barrelled shotgun then i'm sure there would have still been deaths, i don't think any reasonable person would argue that there would have been a LOT less.

And that's the way i see it.
People like that have existed since humans first walked the earth and they'll be here till the day we are extinct.
We as a society NEED to make compromises to limit the amount of damage these people will do.
If that means a small inconvenience of a cop coming round to check you have sufficient security i'm fine with that.
If that means keeping all guns locked when not in use, again small price to pay.

Anyone that doesn't agree with such minor controls has absolutely no hold on reality and the real suffering these and many many many others are going to go through because of their small minded stubbornness.

I dont even let the county appraiser on my land......
nobody enters my home unless I envite them.

when I have a party, I generally have aloot of people over...lots of kids.
all guns get put up prior....

I'll decide what is best for my household....not the gov.

I think the main differannce between us americans ( some anyway ) and folks from other countries......
I dont think you understand how deep the distrust of the goverment is....
law is simply another arm of the goverment.

We americans have laws speciifiic to prevent officers of the law from enering our home.
we have rights that are written, to preserve them....to protect us....from the
goveremnt and its enevitable desire to controle us more and more

the 2nd amendment isnt so preserve our right to hunt
the 1st amendment isnt preserve pir right to bas mouth religion.

the 1st is present so we can speak out openly against the goverment
the 2nd is there so we have a fighting chance against the goverment we they come to shut us up.

[ghtpdm5]

Originally Posted by cbr6fs

Agreed, so logically you'd say that if that was the case as a society we would limit the amount of damage a person could do if they flipped.

the amount of damage if the person flipped argument may seem to be a logical step, but is actually far from it. what i'm saying in my situation (keep this in mind, these are my view on my experiences) is that any firearm purchase approved for me could very well end up in my own death, at my own hands.

Originally Posted by cbr6fs

We could ban guns, knives, cars, alcohol etc tomorrow but STILL as a species we would find ways to kill and maim each other.

humans have violent tendencies, some yell, some go wail on a beater truck, some people shoot. no amount of control will take away ingrained emotional responses.

Originally Posted by cbr6fs

If you absolutely want to kill someone you WILL find a way no matter what's legal or not.

no argument, i had a wooden pencil at each hospital, and i know how to take a person down. anything and everything is a weapon in the right (or wrong) hands.

Originally Posted by cbr6fs

My point is, if semi automatic multi bullet weapons are around in the general public this sort of tragedy is going to happen again and again and again.
If this person hadn't had access to semi automatic big mag weapons then the more kids would have been home to their parents that night.

If the kid had say a double barrelled shotgun then i'm sure there would have still been deaths, i don't think any reasonable person would argue that there would have been a LOT less.

And that's the way i see it.
People like that have existed since humans first walked the earth and they'll be here till the day we are extinct.
We as a society NEED to make compromises to limit the amount of damage these people will do.
If that means a small inconvenience of a cop coming round to check you have sufficient security i'm fine with that.
If that means keeping all guns locked when not in use, again small price to pay.

Anyone that doesn't agree with such minor controls has absolutely no hold on reality and the real suffering these and many many many others are going to go through because of their small minded stubbornness.

this is all down to determination of the subject when it comes to the action they commit. i've pulled triples with an over-under shooting in the back yard, and i am pretty handy with a bolt action. to say that one thing would be less with less shots holds water, but still, there is damage done no matter what.

treat the symptoms of the situation (underlying mental health issues in my case) instead of target the tool used. when i'm putting in a screw, and the drill slips and hits my hand, the drill is not at fault. usually when this happens i'm either pushing too hard on the drill, or i'm going at the wrong angle. do i usually drop or throw the drill, sure, buts it is not at fault.

[cbr6fs]

Originally Posted by rock hard

I'll decide what is best for my household....not the gov.

Problem is that although you may be a responsible person there are millions of irresponsible people out there.
Many of those parents.

In an ideal world NOTHING would be illegal because us as a species would think through our actions and not do stupid things like take heroin, get drink enough to fall over asleep in the gutter, get into fights with blokes twice our size, drive drunk, speed etc etc etc

In reality though we ALL are irresponsible at times and some folks more irresponsible than responsible most the time.

If we can keep firearms from these people and their kids then having guns locked away in a safe when they're at home isn't much of a compromise is it.

And that's the thing here, compromise.

If things stay exactly the same then we'll all be reading about tragedy's like this the rest of our lives.

If on the other hand folks compromise very very slightly (no ones saying you can't have guns here) and for the sake of argument say:
Assault rifle type guns become illegal until you acquire a special license.
Homes are vetted by the police for security before ANY firearm license is issued
Guns are secured in a gun safe when at home and not being worked on

I don't see how any reasonable responsible person would not agree to those rules even if it only reduce the chance of something like this occurring by 0.1%.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by cbr6fs

Problem is that although you may be a responsible person there are millions of irresponsible people out there.
Many of those parents.

In an ideal world NOTHING would be illegal because us as a species would think through our actions and not do stupid things like take heroin, get drink enough to fall over asleep in the gutter, get into fights with blokes twice our size, drive drunk, speed etc etc etc

In reality though we ALL are irresponsible at times and some folks more irresponsible than responsible most the time.

If we can keep firearms from these people and their kids then having guns locked away in a safe when they're at home isn't much of a compromise is it.

And that's the thing here, compromise.

If things stay exactly the same then we'll all be reading about tragedy's like this the rest of our lives.

If on the other hand folks compromise very very slightly (no ones saying you can't have guns here) and for the sake of argument say:
Assault rifle type guns become illegal until you acquire a special license.
Homes are vetted by the police for security before ANY firearm license is issued
Guns are secured in a gun safe when at home and not being worked on

I don't see how any reasonable responsible person would not agree to those rules even if it only reduce the chance of something like this occurring by 0.1%.

if a person ( kid or adullt ) wants to get thier hands on a gun....like the ones we are taling about.....doing hanus crimes.....
they will

there is nothing we can do that will prevent it.
they will plan, and scheme, untill they know where you keep the key, or untill
they get enough cash to buy one from a gangbanger.

did you watch the video dkf posted....in its entirety?
if not, watch it...listen to every word she has to say.....
take notice when she speaks of the reason for the 2nd amendment....high capacity clips...ect.

lots of underatnding and trueth in her words.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by dkf

I put it here, easy to find.....
watch it, and if you disagree, fine
but ackowledge many of us do agree....and we are within our right to do so.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by microgoat

This is why so many kids are being diagnosed with ADHD when they're just being kids. They've got a mental illness, no guns for you!

I said "serious" issues, like depression, mania, schizophrenia, and other ailments that distort your perception of reality.

Originally Posted by RANOVRU

According to Duuudes statement, and probably others views, no you should not be allowed a firearm, given what youve stated about your background.

Problem is, there are a lot of people who havent been diagnosed and dont have a background, that would probably meet the same criteria.


The people who would actually step up and admit/say, "I dont need to have a firearm around" are few and far.

Yep, he should not be allowed to handle a firearm under normal circumstances. The exception would be life/death circumstances.

Maybe there should be psych evaluations for current and/or prospective gun owners. I would add to that mandatory weapons training.

The lack of responsibility is way more disturbing than the weapons available to the general public.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by rock hard

if a person ( kid or adullt ) wants to get thier hands on a gun....like the ones we are taling about.....doing hanus crimes.....
they will

there is nothing we can do that will prevent it.
they will plan, and scheme, untill they know where you keep the key, or untill
they get enough cash to buy one from a gangbanger.

If your kid gets a hold of a gun and does something bad, then you are a shitty parent. It is bullshit to say that there is nothing that can be done about it. If that happens then you have failed as a parent.

If someone else gets a hold of one of your weapons and does something bad, you are a shitty, irresponsible weapons owner.

[cbr6fs]

Originally Posted by ghtpdm5

treat the symptoms of the situation (underlying mental health issues in my case) instead of target the tool used. when i'm putting in a screw, and the drill slips and hits my hand, the drill is not at fault. usually when this happens i'm either pushing too hard on the drill, or i'm going at the wrong angle. do i usually drop or throw the drill, sure, buts it is not at fault.

Problem is though mental health problems are going to be with us until the day we become extinct, there is absolutely nothing you can do about that.

It's also impossible to predict when mental health problems are going to show.

So i can't see how we as a society can do anything to prevent or predict mental health problems.

The other thing to consider is, it's not like every person going through mental health problems is a danger to themselves or others.
So even if the absolute impossible happened and we were able to predict it, we couldn't possible predict the level or actions beforehand.


As i say if every single gun in the world disappeared tomorrow we as a race would still find ways to kill and hurt each other.
So to me the logical thing to do would be to restrict weapons of mass murder only to people that have properly vetted and then have a enforceable law where they will also be required to have these weapons locked away when not in use.


For me this is the difference between
BBC News - China school knife attack in Henan injures 22 children

And
BBC News - Newtown shootings: The victims

Both tragedy's but 20 injured instead of 26 dead would be enough for me to come to some sort of compromise with myself.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

If your kid gets a hold of a gun and does something bad, then you are a shitty parent. It is bullshit to say that there is nothing that can be done about it. If that happens then you have failed as a parent.

If someone else gets a hold of one of your weapons and does something bad, you are a shitty, irresponsible weapons owner.

if some one breaks into your garage, and steals your car, and drives away and kills somneone//// your a poor car owner.

if your kid sneals off in your car in the middle of the night..
then your a piss poor parent....
you should have locked uop your keys.

Oh....and the knifes

if my son needs access and doesnt have it...I'm a poor parent
for not allowing my son the means to protect himself

and your a piss poor parent if you havent edjucated your kids on safe firearms handle and use.
( even if you dont own any ) and trust them/allow then access to a means of protection other than a phone.
Now if you dont trust them.....your the onne who has screwed up. fix it.
If you dont trust thier friends....why are they in the home.