Vaterra Ascender - attempting shock service

[Browneye]

Cool. Yeah, I have a lot of links and spacers and grubs, for any WB. So probly some extras in the spares box.
Be sure to outboard your rear shocks and do the spacer mod for the dual-rates, AKA 'Trujillo mod' - helps with TT.

I've never been unhappy with Vaterra shocks. They work just fine on all my rigs. For as many complaints on Axials, I haven't had trouble with them either. Even the 'high end' Kings on the Bomber with the alloy bits work pretty well, but seep just a tiny bit too. Oh well.

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Cool. Yeah, I have a lot of links and spacers and grubs, for any WB. So probly some extras in the spares box.
Be sure to outboard your rear shocks and do the spacer mod for the dual-rates, AKA 'Trujillo mod' - helps with TT.

I've never been unhappy with Vaterra shocks. They work just fine on all my rigs. For as many complaints on Axials, I haven't had trouble with them either. Even the 'high end' Kings on the Bomber with the alloy bits work pretty well, but seep just a tiny bit too. Oh well.

This forum / the Vaterra Ascender subthread has builtup my noob knowledge of scale tricks for the platform far faster than if it wasn't available. It probably doesn't hurt that I build & crawl full scale rock crawler Jeeps . These 1:10 straight axle rigs are basically the exact same thing as the 1:1 equivalent would be , at least as far as setting up the suspensions. (That's why I bought the Vaterra as my first scale rig ; it handled the most like my real Jeep JK trailer queen.) Well, except for the lack of rear swaybar. I'm about to build the swaybar like @Natedog & others have.


On your points , the first week I had this WB K10 Ascender I out-boarded the shocks & filed down the spring spacers. I'm pretty sure the first thing I googled after running it once was 'Vaterra Ascender torque twist fix ' lol.


(update edit: I am very pleased with the plastic bodied shocks the Vaterra came with ,like you. I do kinda wish they were 5-10mm longer, but , for crawling slow rocks , your shocks just dampen everything - you aren't bombing thru whoopdees at 95mph , so the stock dampeners work great. I upgrade both upper & lower springs to help with dual rate behavior of travel & have the compression/stroke /extension dialed in.
Last night I got the oil changed from whatever weight it shipped with ( it was black it was so dirty!) to some 15w I picked up from pitbullrc. Wow they are far better shocks ,now! It made a big difference...)

'preciate the advice !

[cowboyona426]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Cool. Yeah, I have a lot of links and spacers and grubs, for any WB. So probly some extras in the spares box.
Be sure to outboard your rear shocks and do the spacer mod for the dual-rates, AKA 'Trujillo mod' - helps with TT.

I've never been unhappy with Vaterra shocks. They work just fine on all my rigs. For as many complaints on Axials, I haven't had trouble with them either. Even the 'high end' Kings on the Bomber with the alloy bits work pretty well, but seep just a tiny bit too. Oh well.

If you have the spacers and grub screws to stretch the wheelbase out, and some extra spacers to outboard the shocks that you are willing to part with, I'd be interested.


I will second what j3ff3ry_j33p said as well, there is a huge amount of great info here and a lot of really helpful members too. Glad I found this place!

[Browneye]

Originally Posted by cowboyona426

If you have the spacers and grub screws to stretch the wheelbase out, and some extra spacers to outboard the shocks that you are willing to part with, I'd be interested.


I will second what j3ff3ry_j33p said as well, there is a huge amount of great info here and a lot of really helpful members too. Glad I found this place!

Thanks. I benefited from a shit-ton of help here in the beginning as well. Soon you'll be a pro.


I don't wish to give up my spare parts, but AMain has the spacer kit for $11:
https://www.amainhobbies.com/vaterra...0aAk3XEALw_wcB


Here's the longer grub screws for $5:
https://www.amainhobbies.com/vaterra...235330/p375650


That's really all you need.

To ouboard shocks you need a 3x38mm hex-cap screw and another ball pivot to use as a spacer. Spares for $7:
https://www.amainhobbies.com/vaterra...246008/p251627


The various length links are also still available. The lengths you need verses what you have are in the wheelbase thread here:
Ascender Wheel Base & Link Reference Guide

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

I admit that all the above hassle was worth the outcome; swapping to 15w shockoil made a big difference in dampening the various crawls. I think just having clean oil in them was a big help . The factory stuff suprised me at how filthy it was.

Thanks again for help and suggestions all.

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

Originally Posted by cowboyona426

If you have the spacers and grub screws to stretch the wheelbase out, and some extra spacers to outboard the shocks that you are willing to part with, I'd be interested.


I will second what j3ff3ry_j33p said as well, there is a huge amount of great info here and a lot of really helpful members too. Glad I found this place!

If it helps , I used a dozen teeny washers that were appropriate size for the size bolts the Vaterras use for that shock/ controlarm mount. I out-boarded them before having pivot balls so just chose the right quantity of washers to equal space needing to be filled.
I'll add photo a bit later if that doesn't make sense.

[cowboyona426]

Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p

If it helps , I used a dozen teeny washers that were appropriate size for the size bolts the Vaterras use for that shock/ controlarm mount. I out-boarded them before having pivot balls so just chose the right quantity of washers to equal space needing to be filled.
I'll add photo a bit later if that doesn't make sense.

Makes sense to me, thanks for sharing.

[rkj__]

It's kind of ironic, that the very screw that started this thread, by being hard to remove, had loosened off all on its own on my rig! lol
I noticed it this weekend when I was going over my truck.

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

Originally Posted by rkj__

It's kind of ironic, that the very screw that started this thread, by being hard to remove, had loosened off all on its own on my rig! lol
I noticed it this weekend when I was going over my truck.

I think at the factory maybe I got one of your Vaterra's rear-upper shock mounts loctite & that doubled mine, ha

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

I figure ,since I'm using this thread anyway , I could just prevent unnecessary clutter on the forum & update this thread ...

I am still wheeling the tar outta my K10 Ascender truggy.
I think the realism of the handling of the Ascenders is what got me so hooked. Unfortunately, this realism includes massive torque induced body twisting upon acceleration or deceleration.


So, just like many Ascender owners, I tried the tricks that come easily & available to counteract the TorqueTwist ( TT) for minimal effort or cost ; I stiffened the rear lower springs , used slightly more viscous shock oil , adjusted the shock firming dial a bit more on rear shocks ...I even out-boarded the shocks ...all worked, to some degree , in helping to nullify body roll on this
thing,but it was still majorly roll-ready..

I
I also do what we do with our 1:10 scale crawlers but at 1:1 scale. It's probably my favorite thing of all things.

My full scale Jeep doesn't like to be swaybared up front while it's on the rocks . However, it very-much likes ( needs) to be swaybar-ed in the rear ,however.

So , needless to say , it was irritating me that I could be so aware of the benefit of running ( and even tuning ,like I have done on my fullscale rig) a rear swaybar solution out back of a rock crawler but NOT to have a good option OOB or at least a solution available to purchase for my 1:10 scale crawler.

I enviously read @Natedog or @Yeti.stealth cool threads about the their customized and awesome Frankenstein swaybars,which it seemed like they made so easily & which turn out to look and function as tho Vaterrra designed them.

Well, while I was flying back & forth across the country for work the past 4 weeks , I started thinking about my Ascender and all the parts I had ammassed since I started buying stuff a few weeks prior :



...


threw some of it together with some ideas I had during work flights , imagining things while nodding-off at 36,000' helped me see a possible solution.




..I think I may have come-up with my own little adaptation of the Axial ,Traxxis, Gearheads and Vanquish misc parts that are available ( & in my 1st picture) to end up with a viable swaybar solution ,at least for these truggy ,WB2 setup Ascenders.

(edit: I wanted to add that the two Gearhead brackets are affixed to the rear axle housing with JBWeld and carbon|rubber-reinforced C. They are part called : " Gear Head RC 1/10 Scale L Mounting Brackets" . I bored the M2 holes out to M3 .

Also, the bar that comes with the Axial AX30781 Wraith Front Sway Bar Set slide perfectly into the last 3mm bolthole on the tail of the Ascenders frame. I just slid it in after removing the 2 rearmost bolts on each side.

The endlinks are Traxxas 6897 Rear Sway Bar Linkages , fwiw )






I'll report how the thing performs. It's the 'soft' Axial front crawler bar so I'm pretty sure it'll need to be notched a bit more to lighten it up.

I would take a second to thank Natedog and Yeti.stealth for the inspiration and base parts. Without them I wouldn't have known what to start with. ;)

Likewise, @high plains drifter ...


I am just now testing ...initial results yield total absence of any twist whatsoever . This bar may be far too restrictive in it's current notching...it's the softest in the Axial front swaybar kit ....I'll need to soften it's load up level somehow...

[BondservantPs86]

Originally Posted by Browneye

A good time to check those pistons - how many holes of what size. I'm aware of 3 different versions of shock pistons in them. Do the Trujillo mod while you're in there.

Well, after plenty of lurking I am finally going to get active. So thanks in advance for your help.

What is the "Trujillo mod" and where do I find it?

I know who he is (from my lurking) and he has great Ascender insight, but cannot find a thread about it. (truthfully not really having much luck with many of the searches I have tried, pretty sure it is EBKAC)

[Browneye]

I can look it up for you tomorrow.
Basically you add a stop for the spring slider so the lower coils take up sooner. Rich posted a thread about it in the ascender section.
It helps but I now think a sway bar works even better.

[M1tch]

Rich Trujillo shock mod.

Shock Setup Tip for reducing Torque Twist

If you don't want to do this mod, I have used Gmade Dual Rate shocks which work in the same way.


Gmade XD Dual Rate Diaphragm Shock 103mm (2) - JunFac

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

Originally Posted by Browneye

I can look it up for you tomorrow.
Basically you add a stop for the spring slider so the lower coils take up sooner. Rich posted a thread about it in the ascender section.
It helps but I now think a sway bar works even better.

I'll back this up however, these bars that come with this "axial wraith front end crawler bars " - while the torque rod is absolute perfect OD for the m3 Vaterra Ascender frame hole size , even the softest of the 3 is almost 60% too rigid for the weight of even a heavy Ascender. I've snapped the "softest" of the notched bars & have ground a little more off the "medium" but ,honestly , the out-boarded shock mod is pretty much enough to eradicate the most severe TT on my K10,fwiw. I am working on a different,much less restrictive rear bar solution.

Thnks for useful shock mod info!

[Browneye]

Seems like some piano wire is the ticket...I have not set one up on a crawler. But I have some pivot points now so maybe I'll give it a shot.
The Ascender chassis is still my favorite.

[Natedog]

Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p

I am still wheeling the tar outta my K10 Ascender truggy.
I think the realism of the handling of the Ascenders is what got me so hooked. Unfortunately, this realism includes massive torque induced body twisting upon acceleration or deceleration.

I also do what we do with our 1:10 scale crawlers but at 1:1 scale. It's probably my favorite thing of all things.
My full scale Jeep doesn't like to be swaybared up front while it's on the rocks . However, it very-much likes ( needs) to be swaybar-ed in the rear ,however.

So , needless to say , it was irritating me that I could be so aware of the benefit of running ( and even tuning ,like I have done on my fullscale rig) a rear swaybar solution out back of a rock crawler but NOT to have a good option OOB or at least a solution available to purchase for my 1:10 scale crawler.

I enviously read @Natedog or @Yeti.stealth cool threads about the their customized and awesome Frankenstein swaybars,which it seemed like they made so easily & which turn out to look and function as tho Vaterrra designed them.

....I think I may have come-up with my own little adaptation of the Axial ,Traxxis, Gearheads and Vanquish misc parts that are available ( & in my 1st picture) to end up with a viable swaybar solution ,at least for these truggy ,WB2 setup Ascenders.

I would take a second to thank Natedog and Yeti.stealth for the inspiration and base parts. Without them I wouldn't have known what to start with. ;)

Likewise, @high plains drifter ...

I am just now testing ...initial results yield total absence of any twist whatsoever . This bar may be far too restrictive in it's current notching...it's the softest in the Axial front swaybar kit ....I'll need to soften it's load up level somehow...

Awesome, glad we could all help! Yes the softest Axial bar is too stiff imo, my smaller diameter piano wire bar works very well. Yeti.stealth's buddy made very nice one with brass tube and 1:1 windshield wiper insert thin spring steel bit. IIRC M1tch (apologies if it was someone else here in Vaterraville) ground down and smoothed the outer diameter of the Wraith bar. All seem to work quite well.

Originally Posted by BondservantPs86

Well, after plenty of lurking I am finally going to get active. So thanks in advance for your help.

What is the "Trujillo mod" and where do I find it?

I know who he is (from my lurking) and he has great Ascender insight, but cannot find a thread about it...

Originally Posted by Browneye

Basically you add a stop for the spring slider so the lower coils take up sooner. Rich posted a thread about it in the ascender section.
It helps but I now think a sway bar works even better.

Yes

Originally Posted by M1tch

Rich Trujillo shock mod.

Shock Setup Tip for reducing Torque Twist

If you don't want to do this mod, I have used Gmade Dual Rate shocks which work in the same way.


Gmade XD Dual Rate Diaphragm Shock 103mm (2) - JunFac

Thanks for the link, which really ought to be a sticky!

Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p

I'll back this up however, these bars that come with this "axial wraith front end crawler bars " - while the torque rod is absolute perfect OD for the m3 Vaterra Ascender frame hole size , even the softest of the 3 is almost 60% too rigid for the weight of even a heavy Ascender. I've snapped the "softest" of the notched bars & have ground a little more off the "medium" but ,honestly , the out-boarded shock mod is pretty much enough to eradicate the most severe TT on my K10,fwiw. I am working on a different,much less restrictive rear bar solution.

Agreed and love to see what you come up with!

Originally Posted by Browneye

Seems like some piano wire is the ticket...I have not set one up on a crawler. But I have some pivot points now so maybe I'll give it a shot.

Do it!

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Seems like some piano wire is the ticket...I have not set one up on a crawler. But I have some pivot points now so maybe I'll give it a shot.
The Ascender chassis is still my favorite.

Agreed & I say go for it. You are also right re: the piano wire or similar. I already found suitable ,hardened & flexible rod stock in this size at McMaster-Carr; before buying , I am gonna try a little different ,lighter rear bar solution & config, just to cover bases .

I also ground the Medium Axial bar,too. Still too much rigidity. I have some thinner bar options and mounts to try. You guys all inspire me!

Actually, after even more testing the other day, look at difference in with Swaybar rear vs without rear swaybar;

with:




without:




...I actually get better crawl performance with no rear swaybar. Very DISSIMILAR to my real world, full scale rock rig. If I disconnected it's rear , I'd flop over in under an hour on trails. Weird .

It has a lot to do with those bars being too stiff in these photos,too.

[Browneye]

My experience with sway bars...
I too ran 1:1 rock crawler, a Wrangler TJ, lifted and locked on 35's. The Curry 'anti-rock' front bar was really the ticket - very light with more articulation than a stock swaybar with disconnects. I don't recall a rear bar on those models. But having at least something up front made it handle much better on the hiway, for cornering on road, etc.

For RC, when I built my Axial RR10 Bomber I did some test running with it before installing the rear sway bar - it was nearly uncontrollable. It would body-roll all over the place. Once the sway bar parts from the kit were installed it transformed it. Still articulates just great, crawls like a mutha. It's a very lightweight sway bar. There are aftermarket ones as well, but everybody said they pretty much work the same.

The RR10 swaybar setup:



Here's an example where I think a swaybar would be a huge improvement:

[j3ff3ry_j33p]

Originally Posted by Browneye

My experience with sway bars...
I too ran 1:1 rock crawler, a Wrangler TJ, lifted and locked on 35's. The Curry 'anti-rock' front bar was really the ticket - very light with more articulation than a stock swaybar with disconnects. I don't recall a rear bar on those models. But having at least something up front made it handle much better on the hiway, for cornering on road, etc.

For RC, when I built my Axial RR10 Bomber I did some test running with it before installing the rear sway bar - it was nearly uncontrollable. It would body-roll all over the place. Once the sway bar parts from the kit were installed it transformed it. Still articulates just great, crawls like a mutha. It's a very lightweight sway bar. There are aftermarket ones as well, but everybody said they pretty much work the same.

The RR10 swaybar setup:



Here's an example where I think a swaybar would be a huge improvement:

That's the part from Axial or aftrmrkt specifically for use w/ the RR10 model? I assume ( I'm still scale rc noob) that's that bad*SS lookin' rig in your first picture; it's incredible looking. What bar stock is that kit? I am always looking for potential candidate bars suited for mini swaybars at 1:10 scale, lol.

Both of your rigs pictured are nice & you are absolutely correct ; that 2nd pix w the Ascender truggy w/ nice codyboy axles is a situation that the Vaterra WB2 could use the AntiRock like setup out back.

(edited next day :
So to include images to also display another example of a good use case for rear antisway on Ascender , like what @Browneye posted example of:

you can even see the right SB far extended up here: too bad the "medium" bar stock from the Wraith kit has snapped there & isn't forcing the driver-rear up at all there.




but,front view of that shows the weight of mine plus the out-boarded rears help hold some body roll in check,. but not enough :





...anyway, I need somethin ... haven't had time to go all " mad-fabricator" lately 'cause of sons baseball plus I broke all manner of
stuff on my full scale crawler couple weeks back at Hale Mnt OHV ,so've been fixin her lately. )

[Browneye]

My RR10 Bomber swaybar is the one that comes with the kit, so I don't know what it has for a bar in there. When the rig got built I hadn't installed the bar yet for some test running, but on 3s power it was almost uncontrollable. It would wallow back and forth on and off the throttle to where it would want to swap ends or roll. Put the bar on and it completely transformed it. I think it's worth a shot on my best ascender crawler for sure.

And thanks, it's a fun rig with blx power - stupid fast on 3s, or crawls on 2s. Makes a 1.9 rig look like a toy in the rocks. LOL Almost too capable, and it's not so much fun to run with your 1.9 buddies - like cheating.

I was going to source a wraith swaybar kit - I have the frame mounting tabs to install it on an Ascender. If'n I ever get to it now...TRX4 sport just built and a Element on order.