AX-10 coming to an end as we know it?

[666]

Originally Posted by CBR

I agree Patrick, I haven't made the change yet, but I will soon. Not because MOA's have special powers, but just for the simplicity of electro dig, and lower cog.

That why I like it, reliability. Always works. Something about them shafties though......

[austinquattro]

Originally Posted by jason

A lot of newbies don't understand that the 2.2 class started out as MOA rigs, then the TLT came out and they did better than the MOA's. ;)

Here is a quick and easy:

The entire basis of competition is to be the best within your given set of rules. Berg went out and built a rig well within our rules, and now it seems to be doing well. People are now saying we need to ban them our remove them from the premier class. You know what that tells manufactures? It tells them to not even bother to try something different and make our COMPETITION rigs better because if you do we will ban them.

Months ago everyone was up in arms saying that another comp would never be won by a shafty. There have been a ton of comps since then and the bergs are not killing the competition like people said they would.

Top 5 at the Nats this year were:

1 TLT
1 Axial
3 Bergs

That seems like a good mix to me.

With all due respect, your argument doesn't hold water. In the current climate, there are two types--MOA's and Shafty's. They are just so very different, and advancements are fine, but just as my very eloquent post pointed out, in all competition advancements come out, and some of them are enough to require a rule change. The MOA's are so very different that they should be in a different class than the Shafty's. Maybe move the Shafty's to a "Shafty Class". Keep the MOA's in 2.2. I don't care. I really don't understand the reluctance to separate them except for people who run MOA's for some extra advantage. Seriously, what is the harm in starting a new class of Shafty's only? It would provide better competition and more advancements on both fronts. And the entire basis of competition may be as you stated, but often the rules are open to interpretation, and when those rules are interpreted in certain ways, the rules are often changed. Look, lawyers do it all the time...the law didn't say I can't do something, but after doing it someone realized that maybe that isn't a good idea, so the law changes. No big deal.

If changing the classes told manufacturers not to make advancements, then most advancements in the full scale auto world would not have been made, because rules change often--and usually because of some advancement. Better and different is fine...an improvement on something, a better way to make something work, whatever. And the Motor on axle is a great idea, and works very well...I just don't see why there is such a problem here. If the competition is still equal and there is no advantage to be had from an MOA, then no one should care if there is a new class.

And what brings new people into the RC Crawling game is local COMPETITION. You mentioned that of the top 5, 3 were Bergs. If you look at the local comps, there's a lot of the MOA's now. The point is that keeping them in the same class can hurt and separating them can not. That's all. Heck, I'll probably end up getting an MOA, but I'll still have a shafty.

[austinquattro]

Originally Posted by pvtjrt01550

I think it's interesting that one of the points brought up was that moa axles are not scale. Lets face it, r/c crawling for competiton is evolving and the true comp crawlers are taking advantage of the unique physics of a 1/10th vehicle. Proportinally the r/c crawlers are far more capable than their 1:1 cousins. Like all other forms of competitive r/c, crawling is evolving into it's own form not merely imitating whats happening in the 1:1 world and I say great!!

I don't know if I was the one that said that, but if I did, what I meant was that the shafty's at least still resemble full scale rigs. I sold my Jeep Cherokee with a 5" lift and 33" tires and found that this stuff is a whole heck of a lot of fun...but clearly these 1/10th scale rigs are WAAAY more capable. I know that...and I think it's super cool the things that these small crawlers can do!

[666]

Originally Posted by austinquattro

With all due respect, your argument doesn't hold water. In the current climate, there are two types--MOA's and Shafty's. They are just so very different, and advancements are fine, but just as my very eloquent post pointed out, in all competition advancements come out, and some of them are enough to require a rule change. The MOA's are so very different that they should be in a different class than the Shafty's. Maybe move the Shafty's to a "Shafty Class". Keep the MOA's in 2.2. I don't care. I really don't understand the reluctance to separate them except for people who run MOA's for some extra advantage. Seriously, what is the harm in starting a new class of Shafty's only? It would provide better competition and more advancements on both fronts. And the entire basis of competition may be as you stated, but often the rules are open to interpretation, and when those rules are interpreted in certain ways, the rules are often changed. Look, lawyers do it all the time...the law didn't say I can't do something, but after doing it someone realized that maybe that isn't a good idea, so the law changes. No big deal.

If changing the classes told manufacturers not to make advancements, then most advancements in the full scale auto world would not have been made, because rules change often--and usually because of some advancement. Better and different is fine...an improvement on something, a better way to make something work, whatever. And the Motor on axle is a great idea, and works very well...I just don't see why there is such a problem here. If the competition is still equal and there is no advantage to be had from an MOA, then no one should care if there is a new class.

And what brings new people into the RC Crawling game is local COMPETITION. You mentioned that of the top 5, 3 were Bergs. If you look at the local comps, there's a lot of the MOA's now. The point is that keeping them in the same class can hurt and separating them can not. That's all. Heck, I'll probably end up getting an MOA, but I'll still have a shafty.

Your wrong. They both provide the same thing, if you can't hang, maybe you are not up to the challenge, or you suck at driving.

[StoneCrawler]

I'm not gonna get into the moa's vs shafties, because I don't have a dog in that fight, but I do relate to this statement you made here.

Originally Posted by austinquattro

I noticed the MOA rigs. They seem to no longer even represent an evolution of the R/C truck or car as much as they represent an evolution of 4-wheel robotics.

In discussions with my friends, I've often referred to competitive rock crawling as "let's see who can make a better robot to crawl over this rock". Although my statement is not intended to be derogatory, it's the reason why I favor scale RC trucks over competitive crawlers. The core of my enjoyment in this hobby is founded on the need for my rig to look like a truck. Of course this is a personal decision and I realize I'm in the minority here, especially on a (competitive) crawling thread.

With that said, i do have (or had) a 2.2 crawler, but it's now slowly being scavenged for more scaler builds. I realized what I have the most fun doing, and have soley focused on that.

(I just had to take a look at this thread to make sure Axial wasn't stopping production. Whew what a relief!)

[austinquattro]

Hey, thanks for the input and replies...I'm not bitching about things just for the heck of it. And I'm actually a pretty good driver. I'm not really fearing getting my butt kicked by an MOA, I'm more concerned with getting my butt kicked by a better driver. And I want to be a better driver.

Quote: Your wrong. They both provide the same thing, if you can't hang, maybe you are not up to the challenge, or you suck at driving.

Almost everyone kept it above the belt, and I appreciate that. I don't suck at driving, and I'm up to the challenge, thank you very much. Your answer was a little rude, but I guess that's your prerogative. I'm done with this. No one that thinks one way is going to stop and think the other, regardless of what is said here.

[sloppy]

Originally Posted by austinquattro

The point is that keeping them in the same class can hurt and separating them can not. That's all. Heck, I'll probably end up getting an MOA, but I'll still have a shafty.

what can keeping them together really hurt? fact is shaftys are still doing well at the local level and at the top...

now what can hurt is adding more class's and diluting the waters.. comps take a long time to run. a new class just to separate 2 types of designs from each other does not help..

there are some clear advantages to MOA axles. but there are some down sides to them as well... there not magic

[RCHuffer]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze

Somebody call 911 we need .....

can I get a witness

[CBR]

I am gonna buy me some of them magic MOA axles! They have super powers and you will see, I will be National Champion next year! waaHaahaha!

If you want to be good....get off here and stop crying! Get out and PRACTICE!!! I usually run down 4 or 5 lipos on weekends I dont have comps, and 2 to 3 during the week after work, depending on how much daylight I have left.

Me and my "SHAFTY" beat several Bergs at a comp a few weekends ago. I did get beat by few Bergs also. But the important thing here is the people that beat me with Bergs also used to beat me with their shaftys.

I still dont think you have realized, 2.2 was started with MOA trucks! Those damn shaftys came in here and tried to take over! And as far as the rockcrawling robots...this is competition rockcrawling! I dont give a $hit how realistic it looks, I'm here to win. This ain't no beauty contest! If you want to look real, build a scale truck! And play in your own sand box, cause your crap will get smashed in mine! Good Day!

[WyldWeazel]

Ok... Maybe I have been missing something all this time. When I compete, I thought the competition was between myself and the course. I am the first one to root on another driver. I watch everyone who crawls. I root for everyone. Don't start thinking that this sport is about beating the other guy. It is about learning how to make your rig do what you want.

As to MOA vs Shafties. If anyone had seen the little 10 year old take his stock scorpion, and have it walk through our state championship course, where other fully decked out rigs where struggling (a MOA didn't even finish the course), you wouldn't worry about if you have a MOA or a Shafty. Apparently, we don't even need a dig unit to do this sport.

Now lets quit throwing stones, and drive over them instead.

[hbj069]

Hello I have been into rc world for 20 years and have seen the rise and fall of many a good sport by being ruled to death. To many clubs usually start bending rules to keep people coming out. You have to remember there is the alpha male syndrome that drives most males to the point of picking through every rule looking for the one word that lets them have the edge on the competition. I have watched several videos on this sport and as a weapon systems analyst it was easy to pick up on a lot of those people and see it happening in the crawler world just like the 1/4 scales, truck pulling and several other of the secondary rc sports. The need for well defined unbendable rules is a must. Nascar, Nhra, Ihra have a set rules and are unbendable and thats the way it should be. I have not seen an experimental class or a open class for those guys on the edge. The thought of my wifes axial competing against some unlimited funds guy with a butt load of sponsors is rediculous. Do I want to compete against the judges? Well thats another thing that someone needs to address. My last curiousity would be why the twin engine trucks are competing against the single engine trucks? Can I put an engine on each wheel?

[SlickRockSpider]

Here is my .04 cents (inflation and all).

The difference that MOA and a shafty makes in competition is healthy. If everyone competed with a MOA there would be no room to grow. I think having MOAs and Shaftys in the same class allows more rivalry. Like 2 stroke versus 4 stroke or super charged versus nitrous oxide.

Like most have said driving/practice is the key. I have watched scuzzy51 (the guy who took 2nd at the nats) drive and compete for about 9 months. The man can drive . His rig is a simple torsion style shafty.

Do we need new class for torsion style rigs? LOL

So .................Practice Practice Practice Drive Drive Drive.


There is always the wave or sheep factor that happens when new products show up. I know that MOAs are not completely new but, for the most part they are in 2.2 class. Give it more time and the popularity of the new style, what ever it is, will even it out.

Bring it on MOA boy my shafty will kick your ass

1.9 class will be interesting to watch because of the fact that they are limited to a single motor.


Evan

[Kamikaze]

Originally Posted by hbj069

Can I put an engine on each wheel?

Yes you can. And if you ever do good with it people will complain.......

[pvtjrt01550]

Originally Posted by WyldWeazel

Ok... Maybe I have been missing something all this time. When I compete, I thought the competition was between myself and the course. I am the first one to root on another driver. I watch everyone who crawls. I root for everyone. Don't start thinking that this sport is about beating the other guy. It is about learning how to make your rig do what you want.

As to MOA vs Shafties. If anyone had seen the little 10 year old take his stock scorpion, and have it walk through our state championship course, where other fully decked out rigs where struggling (a MOA didn't even finish the course), you wouldn't worry about if you have a MOA or a Shafty. Apparently, we don't even need a dig unit to do this sport.

Now lets quit throwing stones, and drive over them instead.

There It Is !!!

[scuzzy51]

Originally Posted by SlickRockSpider

Here is my .04 cents (inflation and all).

The difference that MOA and a shafty makes in competition is healthy. If everyone competed with a MOA there would be no room to grow. I think having MOAs and Shaftys in the same class allows more rivalry. Like 2 stroke versus 4 stroke or super charged versus nitrous oxide.

Like most have said driving/practice is the key. I have watched scuzzy51 (the guy who took 2nd at the nats) drive and compete for about 9 months. The man can drive . His rig is a simple torsion style shafty.

Do we need new class for torsion style rigs? LOL

So .................Practice Practice Practice Drive Drive Drive.


There is always the wave or sheep factor that happens when new products show up. I know that MOAs are not completely new but, for the most part they are in 2.2 class. Give it more time and the popularity of the new style, what ever it is, will even it out.

Bring it on MOA boy my shafty will kick your ass

1.9 class will be interesting to watch because of the fact that they are limited to a single motor.


Evan

just wait evan i got axial axels now!

[Locked Up]

For the new generation MOA drivers that get beat by shafties ... they should hang their heads in shame.


Lets not compare Clod axles to the new generation of MOA axles. There is a big difference there. If you can't see it I'm sure Enroute/Newage will be happy to elaborate.


I consider myself to be a "decent" driver. This year I'm leading the Central Texas chapter series after 2 events with an AX10. At the first event I won and beat a few MOAs, including one guy that was top 10 at and the guy that won Crawlapalooza 08 (They were a close second and third). I do not have a billion posts on here and I have not been doing this since 2004 but those "qualities" do not make anyone a better driver. With that as my short resume I have a few points...

IMO there are 2 main types of drivers leaving shafties to run new generation MOA axles:
The first are usually mid or lower level drivers. They have been getting their butts kicked for long enough and decided to try getting a leg up on the competition by getting a technologically superior truck. They are probably also the guys that run right out and buy every new thing available for crawlers because they need a leg up as often as possible. At competitions with their MOAs they may not be winning everything but they are going to do better than an equally skilled driver with a shafty. These drivers also do not want the class split because then they will not have the mid level shafty drivers to beat up on. I suspect these drivers got picked on a lot in high school.

The second type of driver are the skilled drivers. They were already winning comps but can clearly see the advantages of the MOA over a shafty. They do not hesitate about admitting the MOA is superior because they know that whatever they compete against or with, they are going to do well. However, because they do not want to lose to the mid level guys that ran out and bought MOAs ... they had to go get them as well. These guys may not want to split the class but it would probably only be because it will add to the overall comp time.

There are a few exceptions but if those statements offend you and you have a rant about them then you just classified yourself as MOA driver type 1. If those statements made you laugh you are either a shafty driver or MOA driver type 2.




Now for 2 questions:

1. What can an AX10 can do that an MOA cannot? I haven't seen anything myself that wasn't driver error. If there is something consistent I want to know so I can put it to the test at our next event. Something. Anything. Be detailed. this is the AX10 section so lets see what we can do to beat these guys.

2. How are "Better breakover" and "lower COG" are not major advantages? Anybody?




Personally, I know that the new generation of MOAs are an advantage but last year I had more fun kicking AX10 ass with my WK. This year I'll kick MOA ass with my AX10. No, I won't win the state finals if I even beat the local MOA rigs to get there. I know who will ... he drives an MOA and he is a good driver. I also fully expect him to be at least top five at nats.

[maro69camaro]

i say let the bergs come out and play. it only makes that win so much better. last couple comps i have ran. CVRC comp #1 i took 3rd with two bergs beating me out, but i beat two or three to get there. then Nor-Cal comp#1 at the bean, took 4th there with i think no bergs in the top 3 and i beat another berg out there to take 4th. like said on here partice, learn your truck and know what it can do. tell them to bring the bergs on and then give them the shaft. sure is funny when you ready the post, sure can tell who is running bergs just by what they say about this.lol

[Tommy R]

One thing I hear brought up frequently is that in some cases, MOA has advantages, but other times, shafties have advantages. When is a shafty at an advantage over an MOA rig? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$. It's a serious question and I'd be very interested in a response. Thus far, however, I haven't heard any examples. Does anyone have any?

[Jeepial]

Hmm....How can I hook a 350 chevy motor on to the top of a Dana 60? 1.1 MOA rig......LOL

[BuzzKilla]

Originally Posted by RCHuffer

can I get a witness

AMEN!

now lets all be nice and play together , i personaly am more into the building/fabricating aspect of this hobby than comp. thats why my touring car has been on the shelf for over a year. 100mph is fun. but 3mph is better

it is nice to have a crawler that can compete with the rest :-P reguardless of its "technology"