AX-10 coming to an end as we know it?

[austinquattro]

Ok, I'm not trying to stir the pot, or pour salt on a wound, or add fuel to the flame...

I'm really trying to get an idea of what people think concerning the 2.2 class and the ability of the shaftys to compete with the MOA's.

Recently I attended a few R/C Rock Crawling competitions with a friend and promptly revived an interest in R/C cars that was absent since the '80's when I got my first RC-10 with the Gold Aluminum Tub Chassis. I purchased an AX-10 and spent quite a bit on modifications, as well as a lot of time fabricating things. I know they are not scale, but they at least are somewhat representative of a vehicle you may see at the Monster Truck races, or at a 1:1 scale rock crawling event.

Then, as I attended a few competitions, I noticed the MOA rigs. They seem to no longer even represent an evolution of the R/C truck or car as much as they represent an evolution of 4-wheel robotics. I've followed SCCA, NASCAR, INDY, IMSA...all 1:1 scale events. I know that 1:1 is different than 1/10th scale, but a few parallels are evident. In 1:1, rules are set out TO KEEP COMPETITION FAIR, not to inhibit advancements or enterprising solutions to common problems. In fact, the rules actually foster advancements. And what generally happens is this--someone finds a better way to make something or do something and gets away with it because it falls within the rules. It does, however, make it more difficult for the small teams to compete with the big boys since they often don't have the same level of sponsorship and money available. So, the powers that be look at the advancement or change or tweaked part, and usually change the rule to outlaw that. The point is, "Shafty's" are a DIFFERENT technology than the MOA's. Not better or worse, but different entirely. Thousands of people across the country have purchased Shafty's and R/C Rock Crawling has been responsible for drawing more people into R/C than anything else in many years. As a result, many advances have been made and many companies have grown. Now, the MOA's have started to dominate local competitions in such a way that people are beginning to see their options as A) Get an MOA to be competitive, or B) Don't compete. The MOA's can dig BOTH FRONT AND REAR axles, move each axle at different speeds and in different directions, and have nearly unlimited breakover, which fundamentally changes the dynamics of the "vehicle".

I'm not suggesting that MOA's be outlawed in any way, just that they and the Shafty's compete in different classes, just as there is a "scale" class and a "super" class. The folks running the MOA's would then face better competition and the National events would feature better drivers and rigs, and better products would emerge (MOA aftermarket development would probably get better too). And the Shafty's would likewise give one another better competition and focus more on the driver than on the guy who can use his checkbook to outrun the competition.

But one of the most important reasons to separate the two is both for the manufacturer of Shafty rigs and the aftermarket. Clearly, the 2.2 class is pointing towards MOA's as the only choice if competitiveness is the goal. That would limit the amount of available rigs that could be used, and it would limit the aftermarket for those rigs. The more people that are interested in R/C the more it grows, and the more advancements occur, and the more money is pumped into it.


Rules are made for a reason, and I believe, as do many others, that in this case the rules are to promote fairness and competitive spirit as well as to limit, to some extent, how different a vehicle can be so that competition is close. In Professional Drag Racing, Nitrous Oxide, known as a "cheater" technique when it first came about, is fully acceptable--but in it's own class! And Super Chargers are allowed in one class, while Normally Aspirated engines are in another class. And slicks in some but only street tires in others. In R/C competitions, the rules must have emerged and evolved in some way from 1:1 scale competitions. And in keeping with that, separating the MOA's from the Shafty's will do more for the "sport" than keeping them together. It's not an issue of not wanting to compete, but more an issue of wanting to compete with something like what I'm running. Bring a knife to a knife fight and a gun to a gun fight. The MOA is like a gun in a knife fight, where as I'd rather see better, sharper, more unique knives fighting one another.

I don't think anyone would agree that racing a sailboat against a motorboat is fair or reasonable, or a propeller plane against a jet. Or a NASCAR vehicle against an open wheel racer. Or even a four wheel drive vehicle against a two wheel drive one. Likewise, insisting that the MOA's should compete in the same class as Shafty's does not seem reasonable, fair, or in the interest of serving R/C racing as a whole, especially R/C Rock Crawling. Rules constantly change and are modified as advances take place in every sport in the world. Aluminum bats are not allowed in MLB, and if they were, then everyone would have to get an aluminum bat due the competitive advantage they allow. That's why they are not in MLB.

So, does anyone have any input on this? I'm I crazy?

[roksloski]

give me some time to read this again.
and do a little reserch...
i do understand what you are saying...

[EeePee]

A shafty took 2nd place at the Nationals this year.

[coolkidjf7]

Oh god...





I agree on the account of "it's a whole nuther ball game" But on the other hand "Watch your line Driver!" It IS still toy cars so.....

[Boogie]

I can see your point and why you feel the way you do...but, like the example that Eee Pee posted, shafty's are still extremely competitive with moa's.

[austinquattro]

Originally Posted by EeePee

A shafty took 2nd place at the Nationals this year.

I know that shaftys are viable. I'm not saying they can't be competitive at all. But I do bet the guy driving was mostly responsible for it...and the Shafty's have been around longer and have people that have been using them for a while. It stands to reason that some are still going to be winning for a while. I'm saying that lots of people--specifically on the local level--are switching to the MOA's to get an advantage when their driving wasn't enough. And as it happens more, there will be less and less on the podium. What were first and third place? And how about 4th through 10th...what were they? I've been searching and I don't know where I can find that info.

I'm not sure how the statement "A shafty took 2nd place at the Nationals this year," in any way reflects a response to the post I made.

[ROLANDROCKSHOP]

your talking about spec classes?
shafty/moa

like in world superbike (wsbk)where everyone runs the same
tire,but a choice of 3 compounds..soft,med,hard.

that way it levels the playin field.
more on driver than vehicle.

im with ya!!

i think they oughta have..
stock class.. 4x4 only no dig,no 4ws
pro mod ..specs only
unlimted..run what ya brung!!

[cato]

austinquattro: Have you driven both There are some thing the Ax10 can do the Bergler can't and vise-a-versa......I've seen one of our best guys not even clear a course with the berg where the ax10 flew through it. It still comes to set-up and being able to use what you got, the berg ain't going to make you a "super-star" unless you know what your doing with it. Buddy of mine went to the nats had one of each and picked the shafty over the berg And a TLT shafty went into the finals at the nats leading, the Berg that won, cleared a climb "only because of ground-clearence" what-up with that my .02$( and yes i understand what your saying)

By the way....how the DONUTS been lately ...miss them...I use to own "Austin RC Center" and the Pflug. Donuts where ,by far, the best

Rubiredunlmted: sorry dude put your name instead of Austin, dodo here....

[ROLANDROCKSHOP]

i have.
and i like them both.
as you say, they both do what the other cant.
thats when driver skill kicks in..










..or it kicks you down the hill!

[coolkidjf7]

About the "shafty's can't do dig front and rear" How can they not? You could use the DNA dig for the rear and the CKRC dig on the front, they mount on different sides on the trans. I haven't seen this done for some reason though....

[RC Shocker]

I can understand what your point is. You made it well.

I say give it another year.

However, I do agree with many that it is set-up and driver prowess. I do not mind competing against MOA's with my shafty.

That being said, I ordered my HR axles last week. Not so much for a competition advantage, as much as I did not want to use VF or R2D dig.

I can see a change in the rules coming though. Just not right away.

[crawldad91]

i do see an advantage of having moa over rear only as the ax10 has.

but like he said above the ax10 can do stuff the berg cant!

i myself run an ax10 with dig, i love it and have been running it all season against bergs with great success. i finally got a chance to run a berg today and i must say i do like it , front and rear dig is a nice option.but my axial is just as capable.

[scuzzy51]

i've driven both the berg and ahafty. like posted earlier i took secound place at nats with a tlt axled torsion shafty! its all up to the driver and car setup! yes the bergs are all nice machined aluminum, but guess what aluminum and rocks dont mix. plastic will slide over rocks, while the big heavy aluminum berg axles will stick to the rock cause the aluminum is to soft! yes you can put lexan or chassis protector on the cases, but that stuff is still pretty soft and will also stick to the rock. then you got those big motors hanging down to get snagged up! plus i've seen alot of people at local and the nats spray sand in there motor and get the brushes stuck! so then you have a dead motor unless you feel like taking a penalty!

[Josh87]

Someone needs to post video of these things that an ax-10 can do that a berg can't. These people must have very poorly set up bergs or they are just crappy drivers. I have had a couple ax-10's with 15 different chassis and hundreds of set-ups. Then I UPgraded to bergs and they will do everything an ax-10 will plus a million. With higher ground clearence, front and rear dig, and a lower center of gravity. And an Ax-10 with all the upgrades, cost more than a rig with bergs.

[liketocrawl]

Originally Posted by Josh87

With higher ground clearence and a lower center of gravity.

Can you explain this please?

[liketocrawl]

Bergs and Ax-10's are like apples and oranges. People like one over the other. Nothing else.

[jason]

A lot of newbies don't understand that the 2.2 class started out as MOA rigs, then the TLT came out and they did better than the MOA's. ;)

Here is a quick and easy:

The entire basis of competition is to be the best within your given set of rules. Berg went out and built a rig well within our rules, and now it seems to be doing well. People are now saying we need to ban them our remove them from the premier class. You know what that tells manufactures? It tells them to not even bother to try something different and make our COMPETITION rigs better because if you do we will ban them.

Months ago everyone was up in arms saying that another comp would never be won by a shafty. There have been a ton of comps since then and the bergs are not killing the competition like people said they would.

Top 5 at the Nats this year were:

1 TLT
1 Axial
3 Bergs

That seems like a good mix to me.

[Benzbuildr]

Very interesting! I can see your point austinquttro, It seems to me that no one vehicle really has an advatage at this point, I'm sure if one gets to that point then the governing bodies would probably step in and make changes. From the short time i've been in this, these guy's really love the comp with one another, and it's brother competeing against brother, everyone enjoy's the competition, and the comradre after the comp ends. something most sports don't have.

[Kamikaze]

Please not this crap again..........

[cato]

Jason:

rubiredunlmtd: i used the wrong name earlier, sorry.........