AX-10 coming to an end as we know it?

[engineerjoe]

There are benefits to both designs:

Shafty's:
are lighter
turn both axles one revolution for a certain number of motor revs (this can be a benefit)
simple electrically, more complex mechanically

MOA's
are heavier
can (easily) turn each axle at different speeds (this can be a benefit)
simple mechanically, complex electrically

I have a shafty, and I've spent enough money on it that I need to run it for a while. By then I bet a new design will put the shafty's advantages to work.

[Locked Up]

Originally Posted by engineerjoe

Shafty's:
are lighter
turn both axles one revolution for a certain number of motor revs (this can be a benefit)
simple electrically, more complex mechanically

Although true out of the box I disagree on the lighter part for competitions. In order to make up for some of the COG you need to add lots of weight to the wheels. It is better to have the weight in the axlehousings than in the actual moving drivetrain as it increases fatigue on parts if your wheels weigh a ton.

Gearing can be corrected either way. The MOAs have "transmissions", it's not like they are hooked right to the axleshafts.

The simple electrically part is true but not enough of an advantage to make up for the MOA benefits. I find it easier to make a dig switch box than a driveshaft or tranny dig setup. Neither are impossible but soldering is pretty simple IMO.



All these AX10 guys and we can't find an achillies heel for the MOAs?

The best idea I have heard so far is to have sand traps everywhere so the MOAs kill motors. That's not really something I'd purposly wish on someone so what else can we come up with?

[engineerjoe]

Originally Posted by Locked Up

Although true out of the box I disagree on the lighter part for competitions. In order to make up for some of the COG you need to add lots of weight to the wheels. It is better to have the weight in the axlehousings than in the actual moving drivetrain as it increases fatigue on parts if your wheels weigh a ton.

Gearing can be corrected either way. The MOAs have "transmissions", it's not like they are hooked right to the axleshafts.

The simple electrically part is true but not enough of an advantage to make up for the MOA benefits. I find it easier to make a dig switch box than a driveshaft or tranny dig setup. Neither are impossible but soldering is pretty simple IMO.





All these AX10 guys and we can't find an achillies heel for the MOAs?

at this point rc crawling is still in its infantcy. There will be many years of development and different designs made before rc crawling hits it's peak.

Everything that is possible in a MOA rig is possible with a shafty.

The achillies heel for the MOAs is the weight. unfortunately, at this point in rc crawling, lots of weight in the wheels and axles is the norm because people haven't figured out how to lower their CG without it.

[Josh87]

Originally Posted by engineerjoe

at this point rc crawling is still in its infantcy. There will be many years of development and different designs made before rc crawling hits it's peak.

Everything that is possible in a MOA rig is possible with a shafty.

The achillies heel for the MOAs is the weight. unfortunately, at this point in rc crawling, lots of weight in the wheels and axles is the norm because people haven't figured out how to lower their CG without it.

I think thats a bit of a strech.

[Locked Up]

Originally Posted by engineerjoe

at this point rc crawling is still in its infantcy. There will be many years of development and different designs made before rc crawling hits it's peak.

Everything that is possible in a MOA rig is possible with a shafty.

The achillies heel for the MOAs is the weight. unfortunately, at this point in rc crawling, lots of weight in the wheels and axles is the norm because people haven't figured out how to lower their CG without it.

Agreed on the first point.

#2 I disagree with. Take a look at a Berg with a Mantis chassis and think about the type of ledges you can overcome with the added breakover. On those ledges a shafty will either spin tires or flip back. Even with a carrier/multiple driveshaft setup you'd just be raising the COG. Right now this doesn't seem like a problem because we still build courses around the idea of shafties. Once the MOA guys are designing courses that truly challenge their rigs from that perspective, the shafties will be shafted.

The weight is not an achillies heel if there is no weight difference. You have to add the weight somewhere unless one of the manufacturers has started making AX10 axle housings where the bottom half only is made of depleted uranium covered in delrin. Eventually someone will build MOA axles out of some substance that is lighter, stronger and slides over everything.

[Kamikaze]

What makes you think a moa rig is heavier? Mine is well under 6 lbs. My previous comp rig that was a shafty was well over 8

[Jeeperjoe]

Im not trying to say that the MOA should be banned (although i wouldnt mind) but i do have to say the MOA setup has improved the drivers locally that i have seen, nothing wrong with that but i just want to reafirm that the MOA is in fact an advantage..... now i could spend all day researching and not find a thing except for height to weight and suspention setups could make things better/worse, but i have seen what i have seen......

[dpdsurf]

Originally Posted by jason

The entire basis of competition is to be the best within your given set of rules. Berg went out and built a rig well within our rules, and now it seems to be doing well. People are now saying we need to ban them our remove them from the premier class. You know what that tells manufactures? It tells them to not even bother to try something different and make our COMPETITION rigs better because if you do we will ban them.

I think this sums it up right there.

If you can't do what it takes to compete with the best (be it skills and/or equipment, then sign up for the novice class. I am competing in my first season with a shafty. If I'm into the hobby and think I'm good enough I will build a MOA for next season.

[Tommy R]

I respectfully disagree that this sends a bad message to manufacturers. But even if you want to take that argument, think about Axial and what they've done for this sport and how they're being left out in the cold already. I've seen it happen in auto racing. Rules are often altered to keep costs and compeitiveness close once a potential loophole is discovered or utilized that is beyond the scope or the intent of the class. Maybe the rules makers all run MOAs? ;) And no one is suggesting banning MOA rigs. I think most folks are okay with them having their own class or becoming the new Super class. Speaking of, shouldn't Supers be the "premier" class, not 2.2?

engineerjoe, I appreciate your comments on the advantages of a shafty rig, but I have to disagree. Maybe unweighted shafties are lighter, but their CG is way higher so significant weight is added in the wheels/tires. There went any potential weight advantage...IMO. Simplicity is more in the favor of the MOAs, if you ask me.

Simply put, if MOA rigs aren't the top form of rig to own why are so many people spending quite a bit of money to upgrade to them? Certainly not to merely support EnRoute or Hot Racing. ;)

So I'm still very much interested in hearing from those of you who feel the shafties have an advantage over the MOAs. Many have stated this. I'm just asking for examples.

I'll continue running a shafty for as long as I can because it's what I want to run. I don't like the "R/C robot" concept, either. I could afford to run a MOA setup, but I don't want to, nor do I feel anyone who truly wants to remain competitive should have to. I sincerely hope the USRCCA realizes how many people are being adversely affected by this and address it before people just get disgusted. I've seen this sort of thing happen in other motorsports and I'd hate to see it happen here. This sport is growing quickly. I'm sure very soon there would be enough participation to support separate 2.2 classes.

Anyway, that's my two cents...

[slowdown]

x2

[jason]

Originally Posted by Tommy R

I respectfully disagree that this sends a bad message to manufacturers. But even if you want to take that argument, think about Axial and what they've done for this sport and how they're being left out in the cold already.

How is Axial being left out in the cold? Did someone ban Axials?

Originally Posted by Tommy R

I've seen it happen in auto racing. Rules are often altered to keep costs and compeitiveness close once a potential loophole is discovered or utilized that is beyond the scope or the intent of the class.

The costs and competitiveness are very close with shaftys and moa rigs.

Originally Posted by Tommy R

Speaking of, shouldn't Supers be the "premier" class, not 2.2?

Yea it should, however the 2.2 class has been more popular for years.

Originally Posted by Tommy R

I sincerely hope the USRCCA realizes how many people are being adversely affected by this and address it before people just get disgusted.

How are people being "adversely affected" by us allowing the rigs that started a class to stay in that class?


Some facts.

My 2.2 shafty and my 2.2 moa rig both weight almost the exact same. Both have the exact same wheelbase. Both are the same width. The shafty cost way more to build.

[run2jeepn]

I don't see a Real huge advantage between the new MOA's and a Shafty. MOA's can Stall when bound up and keep you stuck in a Rut. The Shafty has all 4 tires turning not matter what till something breaks. but if nothing breaks. It'll pops you out of that rut or what ever.

MOA's and Shafty's... All the Top drivers running MOA's are also running 4 link set ups. (far as I know)... Well most Shaftys run a 4 link set up as well. Same Tires, Same Track Width, Same Wheelbase... Oh and the Same ground Clearance. The Center of Gravity is very close or not the same on both if set up that way.

This was an issue even with 2.2 Clods for the guys who just entered the hobby. It seems the ones who just entered the sport are the ones that are upset the most about this. I heard it all the time. Your Clod should be illegal b/c it has two motors and a Cane Chassis. But did it go to and win the Nats.. Nope. A TLT did.

We tend to see the Same top driver every year. Just a few more since the sport as grown. But no matter what they drive. TLT, AX-10 or Berg... They always tend to stay on top.

Just wait till a nice worm geared 2.2 Shafty axle comes out. Or a perfect Shafty Dig kt. That works 100% of the time comes out.

[ol dirty dirt]

[sloppy]

In racing mod is the premier class, however that does not mean it is the largest class. stock has always been the largest class.

why would this be any different I see supers as the premier class. that does not mean they will be the largest class..

[Red223]

""at this point rc crawling is still in its infantcy. There will be many years of development and different designs made before rc crawling hits it's peak.""


When a halftrack starts winning championships....it's peaked. Half MOA/Half Shafty.

Don't think one has been built yet. Never seen a halftrack with flex....or even a RC halftrack for that matter. Rear tracks would have to be independent for crawling, you'd end up with something that would look like a lunar rover of some sort.

[Tommy R]

Simply put, it stands to reason that MOA have substantial advantages over shafties (basic physics) and I believe it will be a matter of time before they are the dominant rig and that anyone wanting a shot at winning will need to own one. For a variety of reasons, I would be sad to see that happen. And if it pans out that way, I'll be going to 1.9 most likely. And for me personally, it's not a cost issue. But for many, it will be.

My comment about Axial wasn't that they were being banned, but I wonder how their sales would be affected by MOA rigs taking over. That'd be a shame after what they've done for this sport. This is a moot point if you don't believe MOAs have a substantial advantage, of course.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about how dominant MOAs will prove to be over shafties. But I doubt it. I've said my peace and will now bow out of this discussion. We'll just have to wait and see now, I guess.

[stampedeproject]

I originally had the same thoughts about seperating the MOA vs shafties, but I have changed my mind based on personal experience and lots of discussions with some of the top competitors.

My example is that I drop at least a 6-12 hours a week into my Yusa 1/8th scale buggy testing various brushless motors with a pretty ratty looking Mamba Max with only 5 blades left on the fan, a chassis that I don't think has ever been cleaned with parts replaced in a Frankenstien'esk manner. The tuning is set as identicle to the Losi 8 as possible. Then, when I do take my Losi 8 to the track equiped with the best in my inventory, I am less comfortable with the Losi and I drive it worse (no you can't have it).

Talking with some of the national guys, they are just more comfortable with a MOA setups and therefor drive it better... others are just more comfortable with a shafty and drive that better. The reality is that even if thier were all forced to drive stock AX10s, they would still kick the butts of guys like me even if I was driving a fully loaded MOA or AX10 of my choice. They can drive and I pretty much suck.

There are challanges with the shafty design (CG) and challanges with the MOA (Clod Stall and motor clearance) in the builds, tuning, and driving. They are just different and the really good drivers have learned how to use the disadvantages and limit the disadvantages through tuning and driving style.

I say leave them together, however not to throw sand into the lotion, but once we really get the momentum going with crawler events consistantly like in other areas of RC, I think we should consider seperating out full time 4WD vs. Dig type. Maybe that is a stock class, maybe a 2.2 Limited Class with no dig. Maybe we should play it like golf and handicap the really good drivers.

[93'wrangler]

Originally Posted by Jeepial

Hmm....How can I hook a 350 chevy motor on to the top of a Dana 60? 1.1 MOA rig......LOL

i would love to see that....

[pvtjrt01550]

The only thing that makes me nervous is the "how well do you want to crawl/how much money do you want to spend" syndrome. I realize that either rig can be a money pit if you want it to be. I just hope that people new to competitive crawling realize they DONT have to mortage the house to have fun.

[engineerjoe]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze

What makes you think a moa rig is heavier? Mine is well under 6 lbs. My previous comp rig that was a shafty was well over 8

MOA's are heavier for the simple fact that they have 2 motors and two sets of heavy gears. Yes, to overcome the CG of the location of the motors on shaftys weight needs to be added down low to compete on the same courses right now. i guarantee this will change in the future

My comp rig is 5.5 lbs with 6oz of added weight.

What I'm trying to get at is that the designs have different benefits; right now it happens that the rules and atmosphere benefit the MOA's more. When someone figures out how to use a higher CG and lighter weight vehicle to their advantage the MOA's will fall behind. Maybe I already have a shafty in the works that will do just that?

I will repeat what I said because I know that with enough money and time, I can get a shafty to conquer any terrain that a MOA can tackle.