Something to think about

[slobin3d]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

But still, now that everyone is recovering from being broke or bankrupt, where is all that money? Who benefited from all that? Follow the money...see where it went, where its at, and what its doing.

What recovery? last I checked the Country is still at record unemployment and people are still unsure week to week if they will be working. All that money, it's staying at home for just in case. A novel concept, planning for an unfortunate financial swing..... People flat out aren't spending. the top 1% have alot of money and from the 3-4 I know personally they aren't buying either, or the things they are buying are smaller and less expensive then before. Not every "rich" person is Walter Madoff. They feel it just like us, the more you have the more you spend. Sure they have nicer cars and a bigger house, but they have bigger bills too. One of my 7 digit buddies told me that he paid a little over 100k on taxes last year, I make 30k maybe the low end of middle class. I got back more then I paid in. I have no Kids and I don't own a traditional home. Hows that fair?

I think your argument is baised on an unrealistic stereotype and 0 fact

Just for fun look up the wealthiest members of Govt and see what party they are, then in return look to see how much they give in comparison. last I looked a few years back, the Vast majority of the wealthy were the democrats and of those dems, their Charitable donations were among the the lowest, not in proportion to wealth but lowest total $$ amount.

[slobin3d]

Originally Posted by nuckle

If we continue to outsource all of our jobs nothing is going to change. If nothing is american made then what are we going to do to support ourselves. We are becoming the new mexico and quality is going to crap. Politics are ruining the country, meanwhile mexicans, chinese and middle eastern are seeing the money america used to have

Exactly the US is spending more then it produces and certain Civil groups are more or less black mailing companies. Pay us XX.XX plus benei's + pensions at 3 times the national average or else. No wonder companiers are outsourcing Hell I would too.

Originally Posted by GRIMGREG

So you can just take from him since he figured out how to make billions and you didn't? Then you're no better than a back alley mugger.

So I figured out how to make something you wanted, made it, sold it, marketed it, and made a decent profit off my idea, and Now I'm a back lot mugger?

I bet you go to work everyday with the notion that your employer owe's you a paycheck because your there, and that they are there just to employ you?

[TexasSP]

How about just a whole lot less government getting in the way of everyone. Don't care if your a donkey or elephant just stop creating the oh so importance of being you and helping us. I just don't believe that the founding father's sat around figuring ways for the government to tax us more and distribute wealth. Anyone has the ability to become wealthy in this country, no need to redistribute income. Too many success stories are out there of people who where poor becoming multi million and billionaires.

I am not rich by any means but sure as hell don't have class envy for those that are. Do I disagree with how they use their wealth, sure, but I don't want others forcing them to use it how they see fit.

For those that love taxing the rich how about we start with the pro athletes who get millions each year playing children's games? How about the hollywood nut jobs that do nothing but play children's games (after all, I pretended to be other people too when I was 5)?

[RANOVRU]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

How about just a whole lot less government getting in the way of everyone. Don't care if your a donkey or elephant just stop creating the oh so importance of being you and helping us. I just don't believe that the founding father's sat around figuring ways for the government to tax us more and distribute wealth. Anyone has the ability to become wealthy in this country, no need to redistribute income. Too many success stories are out there of people who where poor becoming multi million and billionaires.

I am not rich by any means but sure as hell don't have class envy for those that are. Do I disagree with how they use their wealth, sure, but I don't want others forcing them to use it how they see fit.

For those that love taxing the rich how about we start with the pro athletes who get millions each year playing children's games? How about the hollywood nut jobs that do nothing but play children's games (after all, I pretended to be other people too when I was 5)?

100 years ago this would be true. With todays technology, govt, societies, current state of affairs its simply not true.

Although there are those that disagree....

[freetimecrawler]

Originally Posted by Mr.Slave

when I pay taxes it is a significant amount off my cheques every 2 weeks, what with all the bills ever increasing price of food and gas to pay for, I notice it big time.

when some billionaire pays taxes up there in his billionaire mansion with his billionaire bentley and billionaire ivory back scratchers

he still has billions of dollars.
somehow i don tthink he's going to sweat that much about it.

Originally Posted by GRIMGREG

So you can just take from him since he figured out how to make billions and you didn't? Then you're no better than a back alley mugger.

Originally Posted by slobin3d

Exactly the US is spending more then it produces and certain Civil groups are more or less black mailing companies. Pay us XX.XX plus benei's + pensions at 3 times the national average or else. No wonder companiers are outsourcing Hell I would too.

So I figured out how to make something you wanted, made it, sold it, marketed it, and made a decent profit off my idea, and Now I'm a back lot mugger?

I bet you go to work everyday with the notion that your employer owe's you a paycheck because your there, and that they are there just to employ you?

I think when he's referring to the post from Mr Slave.
Looks to me like you're actually on the same side of the debate.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by RANOVRU

100 years ago this would be true. With todays technology, govt, societies, current state of affairs its simply not true.

Although there are those that disagree....

What the hell does today's technology have to do with taking away individual liberty? This is the same old excuse wrapped in different paper. It has jack to do with technology or anything else for that matter. It's about power, greed, and control. Someone can always create their own reasoning for taking away another persons liberties.

We don't need big brother running our lives and telling us how and where to put our earnings. You can tout the whole dollar thing all you want but trade in one form or fashion is inevitable. Whether it be donkeys or dollar bills some will have more and some will have less. It will always exist even if you eliminate physical money.

Then people will say "oh it's just this one thing and that I and others like me are taking it too seriously". The problem is all these "one little things" have turned into a rather big thing. It starts little by little until one day you turn around and see what you have really lost. It's basically like soil erosion. Thousands of years ago the Grand Canyon was just a little river.

Nothing illustrates my points better than the movie "The People VS Larry Flynt". Even Jerry Fallwell came to understand the folly of trying to regulate everyone else to that degree. I am a Christian and no fan of Larry Flynt, however, I also believe that God put people here with choices to make on their own and those are their own to make. I'll be damned if another man can come along and take liberty from me or any one else the the creator endowed upon us.

I can bet you money right now that I give a larger percent of my income to those in need than Obama and most of the other hard core left wingers who tout redistribution. Yeah, they all talk a big game but I don't see them giving of themselves for others. They just want to take from me to give to others who they deem worthy. Sorry, but I am perfectly capable of making my own choices in this and other regards.

I don't need the government telling me what to eat, how to spend my money, what to watch, what to learn, and how to live.

[slobin3d]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

I don't need the government telling me what to eat, how to spend my money, what to watch, what to learn, and how to live.

I agree 100% to everything you posted.

I think people think that because we don't want the Govt. managing our charitable giving that that means we're hoarding it. We prefer to do our giving to the people WE deem fit, not Joe Blow who applies for it. People confuse the Govt's welfare with Charity and assume because we're against Govt welfare we're against Charity. Thats Far Far from the truth, we just cut out the middle man

[RANOVRU]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

What the hell does today's technology have to do with taking away individual liberty? This is the same old excuse wrapped in different paper. It has jack to do with technology or anything else for that matter. It's about power, greed, and control. Someone can always create their own reasoning for taking away another persons liberties.

We don't need big brother running our lives and telling us how and where to put our earnings. You can tout the whole dollar thing all you want but trade in one form or fashion is inevitable. Whether it be donkeys or dollar bills some will have more and some will have less. It will always exist even if you eliminate physical money.

Then people will say "oh it's just this one thing and that I and others like me are taking it too seriously". The problem is all these "one little things" have turned into a rather big thing. It starts little by little until one day you turn around and see what you have really lost. It's basically like soil erosion. Thousands of years ago the Grand Canyon was just a little river.

Nothing illustrates my points better than the movie "The People VS Larry Flynt". Even Jerry Fallwell came to understand the folly of trying to regulate everyone else to that degree. I am a Christian and no fan of Larry Flynt, however, I also believe that God put people here with choices to make on their own and those are their own to make. I'll be damned if another man can come along and take liberty from me or any one else the the creator endowed upon us.

I can bet you money right now that I give a larger percent of my income to those in need than Obama and most of the other hard core left wingers who tout redistribution. Yeah, they all talk a big game but I don't see them giving of themselves for others. They just want to take from me to give to others who they deem worthy. Sorry, but I am perfectly capable of making my own choices in this and other regards.

I don't need the government telling me what to eat, how to spend my money, what to watch, what to learn, and how to live.

Nowhere in the post that you replied to did I mention govt being the great answer to our problems. To the contrary, I noted the opposite.

Greed runs rampant in our society. And thats part of the problem. That would be the "society" part of what I mentioned.

If you took an ethical poll, I bet a strong majority would agree that greed is not a good thing. Yet my above statement holds true.

Technology is without a doubt one of the biggest reasons why cultures are the way they are today. How can you say that it doesnt influence the majority and life itself?

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Their stupidity is not an excuse for a bad home loan. No one was forcing them to sign those papers. Not everyone can afford to purchase a home...no matter how bad you want it. However, I will agree....banks are pushing their product hard. Each time I bought a home, based on my credit alone, I was offered more than DOUBLE what I was asking. In one instance, I had to tell the guy that if he didn't back off, I was going elsewhere. People need to learn to live within their means....you cant push the blame away for that.

I totally agree that no one forced them to do what they did. But not everyone has the self control or level-headedness to do what they should, and the banks took advantage of that fact. The term "predatory lending" wasn't drawn out of thin air for no reason.

You can look at it this way, and I feel its a pretty good analogy: if someone gets strung out on drugs, do you place all the blame on the person for taking them, or do you place the blame on the pusher for providing them? Which side does the law fall heaviest on?

Originally Posted by GRIMGREG

So you can just take from him since he figured out how to make billions and you didn't? Then you're no better than a back alley mugger.

It depends on the situation. There are those that work hard and honestly to achieve their success, and there are those that lie, cheat, and steal their way to the top. The former would be more apt to realize that the very people that made it possible for him to succeed might need a boost in return, while the latter would say fawk 'em and go buy an island in the Bahamas.

Personally, I feel I should reward repeat customers that do business with me. I appreciate them and their willingness to spend money with me. Sometimes I'll even take a loss, knowing that they have been loyal. To me that is the ethical thing to do. Its also good for business. I take care of them, they take care of me, we're all happy and they (almost) look forward to having to call me again.

I could easily go the other way, charge them full price every single time and charge them for every little thing I do. Undoubtedly I would make more money, if not for the simple fact that I'm just about the only guy in the entire county that does what I do. I could hold them over the coals and rake in the bucks, but I don't because its not right to treat people like that.

Originally Posted by slobin3d

What recovery? last I checked the Country is still at record unemployment and people are still unsure week to week if they will be working. All that money, it's staying at home for just in case. A novel concept, planning for an unfortunate financial swing..... People flat out aren't spending. the top 1% have alot of money and from the 3-4 I know personally they aren't buying either, or the things they are buying are smaller and less expensive then before. Not every "rich" person is Walter Madoff. They feel it just like us, the more you have the more you spend. Sure they have nicer cars and a bigger house, but they have bigger bills too. One of my 7 digit buddies told me that he paid a little over 100k on taxes last year, I make 30k maybe the low end of middle class. I got back more then I paid in. I have no Kids and I don't own a traditional home. Hows that fair?

I think your argument is baised on an unrealistic stereotype and 0 fact

Just for fun look up the wealthiest members of Govt and see what party they are, then in return look to see how much they give in comparison. last I looked a few years back, the Vast majority of the wealthy were the democrats and of those dems, their Charitable donations were among the the lowest, not in proportion to wealth but lowest total $$ amount.

Things aren't really getting worse, so technically we're in the recovery process. The damage has been accessed, plans are being made, but have we recovered? No. Certainly not.

How much do the 3-4 1%'ers that you know make in a year? If its the 7 figures you talked about, they aren't even close. A good friend of mine is in the 7 figure range, also a few customers, and they've had to cut back in the past couple years and watch their finances, same as everybody. I've got absolutely no ill will towards them at all. I'm talking about the 9 & 10+ figure people. The real power players, the ones that are truly recession proof, the ones that somehow made a good profit on the same thing that caused rest of us to take it in the ass.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

You can look at it this way, and I feel its a pretty good analogy: if someone gets strung out on drugs, do you place all the blame on the person for taking them, or do you place the blame on the pusher for providing them? Which side does the law fall heaviest on?

IMO....the user. Personal responsibility seems to be disappearing in our society. Nobody is willing to accept the blame and responsibility of their actions...

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

IMO....the user. Personal responsibility seems to be disappearing in our society. Nobody is willing to accept the blame and responsibility of their actions...

Agreed, but at the same time we shouldn't be rewarding the pushers.

[slobin3d]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

IMO....the user. Personal responsibility seems to be disappearing in our society. Nobody is willing to accept the blame and responsibility of their actions...

exactly. it's not my fault! and I want you to take care of it for me!

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Agreed, but at the same time we shouldn't be rewarding the pushers.

If the user said "no", then there would be no reward.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Agreed, but at the same time we shouldn't be rewarding the pushers.

Many moons ago I bought, sold, and used. While I sympathize I don't excuse. Most sellers are users themselves as most people don't just start selling without first using. I honestly don't see how the pushers are being rewarded. The banks are still having major issues over the collapse and with new home sales in the toilet completely, they aren't burning up the paper writing new mortgages. In reference to they drug pushers, the dealers typically get the most jail time and almost always get a felony charge, unlike the users.

No one ever forced me to use drugs and surely no one I ever bought from did. I also never pushed anything on any one else.

Every one carries their own responsibility and I don't blame the people who sold to me for my actions. I always had a choice. Fact is you always have a choice, you may not like what the choices are but they are most always there.

As for the housing if you don't read it, or don't understand, but yet sign it anyway, that is your fault too. Fact is this whole push was started in the Clinton era and the further pushed by Bush (although Bush did have some reservations about it that he voiced).

There is plenty of common sense type help and information out there for people looking at buying. If you buy beyond your means that is your fault. I had a guy that worked for my company, made 10-12 per hour, his wife about the same. He also worked nights at walmart making around 8 an hour. His house payment was 1500 per month. That's just stupid. Mine is less than that and I make a fair amount more than him.

Again it's all about choices. You keep saving these people from their mistakes they will never learn and just become more and more dependent on the government and demand more and more. Just look at the welfare system.

Ravoru, I don't honestly know if you really know what you are talking about most of the time. You just seem to like to have opinions and argue with everyone. You may want to open some books and read a little history and you will find that greed is far from a new phenomenon. Technology has jack to do with it.

[caymin last]

I've read through this thread with much interest, some very important subjects have been raised.
Many people are becoming more curious about the government, and it's dealings with certain things that seem to be 'not so clear', or maybe even underhanded. There are lots of opinions and even conspiracy theories about all sorts of subjects to do with TPTB.
Most people agree on one thing, there are things that go on in the background (behind closed doors) that we are not be aware of, and generaly politicians are creatures of habit.
A good way to gauge, or get an basic understanding of how things operate, is to look at facts from the past, incidents ect. that occured, what the general public was told about them, and through the FOIA (freedom of information act), find out what happened, how it was handled, and the real truth behind the scenes.
The internet has opened a window into a fascinating world of facts and formaly top secret documents that anyone can access, and this gives a little insight into the 'modus operandi' of TPTB
Here is a link to a huge archive of released national security documents, interesting facts and info....http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

...

I see your point. Maybe the drug analogy wasn't all that great.

But still, the banks wouldn't have offered the deals if they didn't think they would make a profit. They aren't that stupid and you shouldn't believe for a second that they didn't know what was going to eventually happen. Somebody made money off of all this. Even if you say the gov't made them do it, they still crunched the numbers and found a way to make money somewhere, otherwise they would have fought to their deaths to prevent it. At some point, ethics and common sense were cast aside.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

But still, the banks wouldn't have offered the deals if they didn't think they would make a profit. They aren't that stupid and you shouldn't believe for a second that they didn't know what was going to eventually happen. Somebody made money off of all this. Even if you say the gov't made them do it, they still crunched the numbers and found a way to make money somewhere, otherwise they would have fought to their deaths to prevent it. At some point, ethics and common sense were cast aside.

Of course they did.....they aren't charities.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Of course they did.....they aren't charities.

No they aren't. But any half sane person looking for a loan wouldn't pick one if they were told outright that their payments would double or triple in a few years either. I bet the guy trying to push the super awesome home loan on you didn't tell you that...

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

No they aren't. But any half sane person looking for a loan wouldn't pick one if they were told outright that their payments would double or triple in a few years either. I bet the guy trying to push the super awesome home loan on you didn't tell you that...

Actually, my first meeting with a loan officer, she used a lot of words that I had never heard before....but instead of just shaking my head and then signing my name, I told them I'd think about it, headed straight to the bookstore grabbed a large coffee and a copy of Mortgages for Dummies and read the entire damn thing. Then, I knew a LOT more and I didn't get in over my head. I knew the loan that I wanted and searched until I found it. I am no financial genius....just had a bit of common sense and knew when I was over my head...and searched for help.

I mean seriously, when a loan is called "Adjustable Rate" can someone seriously think that the rate will go down?!?!