2010 Rules Questions

[highlandcrawler]

Thanks thats exactly what i was looking for thank you

[EvilTwin v2]

No comment about anything? How about at least an answer as to how you plan to tech this weight rule???

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

I just don't get the tire weight rule.

First off, how do you plan to realistically tech this? You would have to open up at least 1 front & 1 rear tire on each vehicle to see what weight was added.

Secondly, this rule really only benefits the light weight build (lexan body, plastic parts, etc.) that can effectively use only 12oz of weight. However, only 12oz in a hard bodied, metal tube & bumper, 3-speed rig is nothing. If you were to enforce a tire weight rule, it should have been done as a percentage of total rig weight.

[slobin3d]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

No comment about anything? How about at least an answer as to how you plan to tech this weight rule???

Its the same rule as we have had since the first year, It hasn't been an issue so it hasn't been addressed. If someone is suspected of being in violation we will either remove the tire from the wheel if beadlocked, or assemble a wheel and tire combo to match and weigh the difference.

[Crawln Coles]

I have a question.

• If you remove the tailgate, you must have a complete floor and drop bed. If you want to remove your doors, you must run a full interior. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.
• A tubed bed must have a Functional bed area capable of carrying a full-size spare laid flat (rear fender and tailgate rules do not apply to tubed beds).


I don't have a tailgate or a floor, and if it's considered a tube bed a spare won't fit laying down. Unless I put it on top. Is this OK? If not what needs too be changed?

[slobin3d]

do the tires mount to the bed/chassis or do they rest in there and fall out when tipped?

[Crawln Coles]

Originally Posted by slobin3d

do the tires mount to the bed/chassis or do they rest in there and fall out when tipped?

They just rest in there and will fall out unless they're strapped in.


If it isn't legal what if anything can be done to make it legal?

Thanks

[ggooler]

Originally Posted by Crawln Coles

They just rest in there and will fall out unless they're strapped in.


If it isn't legal what if anything can be done to make it legal?

Thanks

you could build some type of a tire rack and get the points for it too.

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

No comment about anything? How about at least an answer as to how you plan to tech this weight rule???

It's more of a guideline than anything else. We're basically telling you to limit it to 12 total oz. added. If you feel like you need to cheat and add more, then you'd better not get caught. It's one of those things where you'd really have to cheat alot to make it so obvious that we'd force you to pull your wheels apart...if that were to happen, then you would get disqualified. So please people, just don't add more weight than you're allowed.

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by Crawln Coles

I have a question.

• If you remove the tailgate, you must have a complete floor and drop bed. If you want to remove your doors, you must run a full interior. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.
• A tubed bed must have a Functional bed area capable of carrying a full-size spare laid flat (rear fender and tailgate rules do not apply to tubed beds).


I don't have a tailgate or a floor, and if it's considered a tube bed a spare won't fit laying down. Unless I put it on top. Is this OK? If not what needs too be changed?

The rule is to make people build a bed that is big enough that a tire can fit in laying down. The tire doesn't have to sit in it all the time, it just needs to be able to fit between the sides of the bed. You don't even have to run a spare tire if you don't want to.

I'd say that you're fine.

Now, I'm finding that this rule is an issue for my Bronco. There's no way that a 2.2 Rok Lox will fit in the rear tube work of my truck. Not too sure how that's going to work.....

[hotwheels000]

Matt, I would think if you added a tailgate you would be good to go.You have full bed sides so I would look at it as a bed and not a tube bed.

Rules dont say your "bed has to have a floor.There is no clarification on size of the tailgate so a 5th wheel style one would look great on that truck.

What about a tailgate net ?? very common in 1:1

Just my opinion and interpretation of the rules,hope it helps.

Its a suggestion to bring you into spec with out having to rebuild the truck,not trying to skirt the rules.

Correct me if I am wrong guys

[62PYRO]

Originally Posted by War Pig

The rule is to make people build a bed that is big enough that a tire can fit in laying down. The tire doesn't have to sit in it all the time, it just needs to be able to fit between the sides of the bed. You don't even have to run a spare tire if you don't want to.

I'd say that you're fine.

Now, I'm finding that this rule is an issue for my Bronco. There's no way that a 2.2 Rok Lox will fit in the rear tube work of my truck. Not too sure how that's going to work.....

On the off-chance that I could attend,I'm just curious on the flatbed/spare rule.Does the spare have to lay flat or can it be angled?The reason I'm asking is,I'm working on my SCX and would like it to fit within the rules just in case.Basically what I'm saying is,would a bed like Ben's old 1:1 be legal?

[XSRCdesign]

Coles id also say you are good,

As Tim said, that rule is to try and ensure people are actually building a tube bed area, more of a size thing.

You do not need to run a spare with a tube bed.




Pat, that would be legal.

[Culetto]

Originally Posted by slobin3d

No prob, keep in mind that certain Items have a max limit IE tools and camp items that after x amount they no longer add to your points

Ya but i have a nice blank slate to start adding goodies too. Still dont know what the back half will be yet or if that cab will stay on it but again i thank you for the clarification.

[Tommy R]

Hey y'all,

First of all, thanks for seeking feedback and input from us! Now onto my questions...


• You may add weight to your wheels, but you are only allowed a maximum of 12 TOTAL oz's. You can put it in whichever wheels you want, but 12 oz is the total. Weight can only be added internally, no external wheel weight is allowed.

Why is wheel weight limited? People could always make steel wheels or make lead beadlock rings ;) but these wouldn't be considered "added weight", right, since they are part of the design of the wheel? My point is that this rule is pretty vague and I question it's presence in the rules. Could this rule be effectively removed for simplicity? As an alternative, it would at least seem a max overall tire/wheel weight would be more applicable.....and easily enforceable, if need be.


• You must run a complete body, including bumpers, fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. If you remove the tailgate, you must have a complete floor and drop bed. If you want to remove your doors, you must run a full interior. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.

Would my Jeep fit within these rules? The front fenders are essentially flat fendered and the rears are comp cut, which is fairly common among street driven Jeeps. I would hope it fits, but if not, I'd understand.



• A shortened or lengthened body is allowable. A tubed bed must have a Functional bed area capable of carrying a full-size spare laid flat (rear fender and tailgate rules do not apply to tubed beds).

So would a "tubed bed" be considered the same as a "truggy" or is it referring more to flatbeds? Would a purpose built tube buggy need to also be capable of carrying a spare tire laid flat?

Lastly, will these National events always be held in Montana?

Thanks in advance!
Tommy

[XSRCdesign]

Originally Posted by Tommy R

Hey y'all,

First of all, thanks for seeking feedback and input from us! Now onto my questions...


• You may add weight to your wheels, but you are only allowed a maximum of 12 TOTAL oz's. You can put it in whichever wheels you want, but 12 oz is the total. Weight can only be added internally, no external wheel weight is allowed.

Why is wheel weight limited? People could always make steel wheels or make lead beadlock rings ;) but these wouldn't be considered "added weight", right, since they are part of the design of the wheel? My point is that this rule is pretty vague and I question it's presence in the rules. Could this rule be effectively removed for simplicity? As an alternative, it would at least seem a max overall tire/wheel weight would be more applicable.....and easily enforceable, if need be.

It also reads, no external weight allowed, I would have to ask the others, but lead on the outside of the wheel, would be considered external weight IMO.

the Idea is scale points are awarded for things that add to the scale and realistic aspect, most of these items usually inhibit performance by placing weight in a not so ideal area. also causing "scale behavior" of the way the rig works.

keep in mind this is a scale event, all of the rules were made to try and keep the integrity of competition, without trying to limit building. this rule has never been a problem, and mostly done on the honor system. As said before, if a judge or official asks to check, you will get caught.

• You must run a complete body, including bumpers, fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. If you remove the tailgate, you must have a complete floor and drop bed. If you want to remove your doors, you must run a full interior. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.

Would my Jeep fit within these rules? The front fenders are essentially flat fendered and the rears are comp cut, which is fairly common among street driven Jeeps. I would hope it fits, but if not, I'd understand.

Jeep looks good to me, would be a great addition to the scale nats

• A shortened or lengthened body is allowable. A tubed bed must have a Functional bed area capable of carrying a full-size spare laid flat (rear fender and tailgate rules do not apply to tubed beds).

So would a "tubed bed" be considered the same as a "truggy" or is it referring more to flatbeds? Would a purpose built tube buggy need to also be capable of carrying a spare tire laid flat?

tubed bed and truggy follow the same rules.

I think there is still question on the full tuber, but the way the rules speak, as long as it is as long as your wheelbase, and you meet the width and height restrictions, you should be good. I will let the others chime in here.

Lastly, will these National events always be held in Montana?

Thanks in advance!
Tommy

Ben lives there, so I would guess they will always be in Montana, I drive from Cleveland Ohio each year, and it is worth every mile

[HotRodJosh]

My new build has an exocage. The front bumper is integrated into it, welded on, yet the entire upper 1/2 of the exo is removable and attaches to the rock sliders....

Just kinda curious as to where it would "fit in" with the bumper/exo/rockslider points breakdown.

[XSRCdesign]

Originally Posted by HotRodJosh

My new build has an exocage. The front bumper is integrated into it, welded on, yet the entire upper 1/2 of the exo is removable and attaches to the rock sliders....

Just kinda curious as to where it would "fit in" with the bumper/exo/rockslider points breakdown.

it is hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like there is still an attachment point at the frame no?

if the bumper or sliders were tied into the frame as well, I would award points for it, if they were just part of the exo, then just the exo points.

make sense?

[HotRodJosh]

Originally Posted by exesivefire

it is hard to tell from the pic, but it looks like there is still an attachment point at the frame no?

if the bumper or sliders were tied into the frame as well, I would award points for it, if they were just part of the exo, then just the exo points.

make sense?

Kinda makes sense....
The exo attaches (slides) onto the pins (and lower bars) that are welded to the rock sliders...
Usually a guy will have a rig that over time continues to be upgraded...first bumpers, then rocksliders...till it gets an exo as the owner keeps pushing his rig. And all that tubing gets welded on....
That's what this rig was meant to resemble.

Yes, the rocksliders are bolted on. The exo bolts to the frame at the front and back.
I was mostly curious as to the bumpers, because it's tied (welded) into the exo.....

I guess I shouldn't be too worried about it, it's probably going to be over the points max anyway...

Can't wait for May....

[XSRCdesign]

Bumpers must attach to the frame at some point, so they can be tied into the exo, but still must have a attachment point at the frame, it does not have to be permanently attached ( welded ) but bolted to the frame.

the idea here, is bumpers can not be mounted to the body.

From what I can see ( again i'm looking at a pic here )

you would get a front bumper, sliders and exo. It does not look like that rear bumper attaches to the frame anywhere.

[Tommy R]

Originally Posted by exesivefire

It also reads, no external weight allowed, I would have to ask the others, but lead on the outside of the wheel, would be considered external weight IMO.

the Idea is scale points are awarded for things that add to the scale and realistic aspect, most of these items usually inhibit performance by placing weight in a not so ideal area. also causing "scale behavior" of the way the rig works.

I'm with ya. My question more to the point is this... Wheel material is open, correct? So someone may run aluminum wheels legally. Of course, this is an advantage over plastic wheels due to the weight. No problem, IMO. What if I wanted to machine a steel wheel so it could rust realistically? Likewise for the rings. This could be an extremely heavy wheel and would not yield the desired performance we're looking for, i.e. less unsprung weight, yet it would be legal as I see it.

No, I'm not looking to do this personally. I'm just trying to help identify potential loopholes. That's why I wonder if maybe a max overall wheel/tire weight would be a reasonable rule change to consider? If not, I'll hush. Apparently, the rules as written aren't posing any problems now.

keep in mind this is a scale event, all of the rules were made to try and keep the integrity of competition, without trying to limit building. this rule has never been a problem, and mostly done on the honor system. As said before, if a judge or official asks to check, you will get caught.

And just to clarify, I'm not looking to exploit the rules. I'm just trying to help by pointing out possibly loopholes to be addressed. I've been involved in lots of rules committees so I understand the challenges they present.

Jeep looks good to me, would be a great addition to the scale nats

Thanks! Unfortunately, it's just too far for me in Texas. :(

tubed bed and truggy follow the same rules.

I think there is still question on the full tuber, but the way the rules speak, as long as it is as long as your wheelbase, and you meet the width and height restrictions, you should be good. I will let the others chime in here.

Another example would be a Wreckluse...or a truck version of a Wreckluse. Should they have provisions to carry a spare? FWIW, I'm planning on building a TTC-inspired truck that will resemble a truggy based on a full frame, but no actual bed. Instead it will have just tube work and no spare.

Ben lives there, so I would guess they will always be in Montana, I drive from Cleveland Ohio each year, and it is worth every mile

I'm flaunting some of my ignorance with Scale Nats here (only been into scalers since Sept.) so I'm not sure who all the key players are. I would really love to attend Nats this year, but it's prohibitively long to drive there and airfare isn't cheap....especially with the boxes required to transport all my trucks/gears.

It's okay, though. Hopefully more big scale events will start popping up in the central US at some point.