New class to encourage newbs..

[holycaveman]

Originally Posted by ROWDY RACING

I get what your saying, but for the most part we are adults here and should understand you are not going to be good at something when you first start out, it takes time. Last year at ECC I did not finish a single course, finished in 90 something place, and I had a blast doing it. This year at ECC I finished every coarse and finished 50th, and had the same amount of fun.

If enough people showed up at one of our clubs comps with box stock rigs, I would be happy to let them run their own class.

Bingo.

You know when I started off road racing I was the guy that couldn't make it up the hills. It took me a while to even finish a course. I loved it anyways. And ended up racing professionally.

Some guys throw in the towel if they have to struggle at all. So do we cater to these people? From my experience they wont stick around anyways.

More important is the clubs attitudes and the level of encouragement and support they give to newbies..

I like the five dooable gate and bonus format. Makes it very easy if you stick to gates only, and very competitive if you push for the bonuses.

Just my opinion.

[holycaveman]

Originally Posted by Chris_The_Battery_Man

..

For some reason your avatar really disturbs me.

[OKJeepin]

Originally Posted by holycaveman

For some reason your avatar really disturbs me.

It's not as bad as Duuuuuuudes to me!

[holycaveman]

Originally Posted by OKJeepin

It's not as bad as Duuuuuuudes to me!

LOL.

You know I have been pushing for a pro and amature class for some time. This would help split the levels of driving without demeaning the competition.

The pro class could carry on close to normal.

Amature class could be a little more forgiving with some Crawler mod restrictions.

But this should only be at larger comps. If a local group only had 10 people show and 3 eligible for amateur then there is no point.

[666]

Originally Posted by C*H*U*D

This is a good point, and probably a big reason these new classes don't get started, or other classes get dropped.

I bet though if people just walked up and said, "Hey, what can I do to help out", nobody would turn them away. Grab a clipboard and judge...as score sheets start coming in, grab a calculator and start adding totals...when everyone else is heading for their cars to leave, stick around and clean up the course by collecting gate markers. Take some workload off of others, and the comp will run smoother and faster.

Novel idea

I love the idea of new people competing and have tried to make my courses friendly to all!

[craddock35]

Gotta throw my veiw in on it since the guys I crawl with won't comp and I want to. The reasons they won't comp are $$$$ to start with then like others have said on here the courses are setup for pro drivers and they can't even start to make some or most of the gates. I have managed to get them to go to a couple of comps and we play on the side and watch the guys compete. They said there is no way that they can do some of that with the budget they are on the course setup which burned them on even trying comps right off the bat. We kinda hold our own little comps at the areas we crawl but that is all they will do unless there is a beginners comp started. I think it should be setup like some other comps. You have a point system already in place or at least from what I know you do but you can start a beginner out and once they reach so many points they move up to amature then to pro I know here local that would add I would say at least 3 if not 4 or 5 people to the comps.

[SDheavymetal]

At SDRCRC they have done several differant things for the sportmans class.

I ran sportman class for 2.5 years. My son and I ran together. My son is almost 18 now and has other inserest.

This is how its run for sportsman now. 10 gate course with 6 min. If the finish the 10 gate the go to "bonus land". We stop the clock when they finish. They take the sportmans truck to the pro 2.2 course. They get -10 pionts for every gate they progress on the 2.2 pro course. Then the better drives get to try the 2.2 pro class. I think Nabil came up with this.

For 2.2 pro if you finish the course you go to bonus land. You get -2 for every course you progress on the sportsman course. We also run 1.9's on the sportmans course.

I run 2.2 with a XR10

[donhd04]

Originally Posted by SDheavymetal

At SDRCRC they have done several differant things for the sportmans class.

I ran sportman class for 2.5 years. My son and I ran together. My son is almost 18 now and has other inserest.

This is how its run for sportsman now. 10 gate course with 6 min. If the finish the 10 gate the go to "bonus land". We stop the clock when they finish. They take the sportmans truck to the pro 2.2 course. They get -10 pionts for every gate they progress on the 2.2 pro course. Then the better drives get to try the 2.2 pro class. I think Nabil came up with this.

For 2.2 pro if you finish the course you go to bonus land. You get -2 for every course you progress on the sportsman course. We also run 1.9's on the sportmans course.

I run 2.2 with a XR10

Isn't that the same rules as WEROCK? I'm not sure on that but it sounds alot like it.

[hoghead5150]

that wouldn't work for us as we run our sportsman class and pro class on the same courses already!

we can all agree that the only way to get new people into the sport (and keep the older guys in the sport) is to make it fun. if your not having fun, your not gonna do it, plain and simple.

the addition of a new class just won't work. nobody that has been comping for a couple years is gonna want to run a box stock rig. on the flip side, any new guys are not gonna want to run box stock because the most fun in this hobby is the modification of the rigs. so we can eliminate a new class.

to be honest, a competitive sportsman rig is gonna cost close to the same as a competitive pro rig. i don't think it's the rig that needs to be looked at as much as the driver experience.

it's been said (and proven) that a good driver with a bad rig can beat a bad driver with a good rig. the only way i can see bringing in new guys, keeping the comp scene fun for them, AND keeping the older guys and making it fun and challenging for them is course designs.

something like 8 gate courses with 2 bonus gates at end. gates start fairly easy getting harder up to gate 7. make 7 and 8 challenging. then the 2 bonus gates at the end are pass/fail. you hit a gate that bonus is dead and move on. no gate penaltys on bonus gates. make these gates challenging for even the top drivers at your comps.

the new guys will be able to get drive time, maybe finish half the course, maybe finish all the course, but at least will be able to get something. then the better drivers will have to conquer the tougher bonus gates.

[Chris_The_Battery_Man]

Originally Posted by hoghead5150

the addition of a new class just won't work. nobody that has been comping for a couple years is gonna want to run a box stock rig. on the flip side, any new guys are not gonna want to run box stock because the most fun in this hobby is the modification of the rigs. so we can eliminate a new class.

I would have to disagree to a point on this. If that were true, then there wouldn't be 99.9% RTR's these days. Grant it, crawlers are a special breed for the most part. But there are becoming less and less builders. There are plenty of people that just want a cool truck to drive. The upgraded parts are pimp. But a newb isn't always going to know what is good to upgrade or to even do it. Some of our noobs come from the 1:1 world and have never even touched an RC.

[Solitaire]

Originally Posted by hoghead5150

the addition of a new class just won't work. nobody that has been comping for a couple years is gonna want to run a box stock rig.

Well, we're not talking about a guy that's been comping for a couple of years. We're talking about newcomers.

Originally Posted by hoghead5150

on the flip side, any new guys are not gonna want to run box stock because the most fun in this hobby is the modification of the rigs. so we can eliminate a new class.

They might not want to run box stock (with a few allowable upgrades), but if that's what the comp organizers have chosen for their newcomers, then that's what they'll have to drive. Plus it's not even a new class...the AX10 fits right in there. Let them upgrade (links, c-hubs, knuckles etc) for strength and nothing allowed that promotes mechanical advantage. With everyone on an even playing field, it's driver skill that'll take them further.

[hoghead5150]

well chris, i guess i would be considered a NEWB. i've been in this hobby less than a year now. the reason for manufacturers building rtr trucks is costs. they charge more than a kit truck, then make tons on people upgrading parts on these rtr's. it's easier for a new guy to buy a rtr rig than build a kit. for one, most don't have a clue how to build a kit, second they are scared to death about electronics, and third new guys would rather buy and drive than buy, build, wait, build, wait, and then drive hoping they got things right.

i was in this same boat. after the first week of driving a stock wraith i figured out quick what needed upgrading. after a couple months we had new links, steering, servo, esc, motor, radio, shocks, springs...etc you know the drill. when i bought the ax10 i knew it would get upgrades. now the only thing left of the original ax10 is the front axle case, the rear axle and the esc.

a class for box stock would suck. the rigs are not as capable as people want. they watch other rigs that are modified and they want that. IF they are stuck in a box stock class you kill the ability for the new guy to modify his truck. now he CAN modify but then he gets bumped into another class and we are back where we started from! most people are not gonna wait till they learn to drive properly before starting to modify their rigs.

i still stand behind the thought that the only way to grow attendance is to make it fun for EVERYONE that comes out. rather it's new classes (i don't think will help), or by course design something has got to keep people interested and coming out.

from my point of view the comp scene for me is not about winning. i'm not gonna win, i know that. its about beating myself. all i'm trying to do is drive like i think i can, and watch and learn how my rig reacts. i'm learning what it will and won't do. that way next course, next gate, next comp i have a better idea how to tackle things. what really sucks tho is when you can't even get past gate 2 on a course. i don't learn a thing, i don't have fun, and i wasted a day doing it. most of our comps are at least 2 hour drives away. a spec (stock) class wouldn't help me, i'm not downgrading my rig or buying a new stock rig for that, but course design would help.

[rmdesignworks]

Im glad to see this thread raising the questions that it is...Nice move Chris.

I have not read every post word for word but I did not see any mention of something that we saw here quite a few times...new guys showing up with box stock rigs of whatever brand, that were told by the sales guy in the lhs that all they needed to do, was to go home and charge the batteries in their new RTR and they could come back and crawl the rock pile with all of the other drivers. They bring out their shiny new rig...stock everything and find out that getting to gate 1 is like crossing the Sahara without shoes.

Pushing a box stock class isnt something that necessarily has to take place at every comp either...it could be a once a month thing for the newest guys to compete in their own class but they would be welcome to compete at any other event taking place. Maybe even have a digless comp once in a while that all classes compete in. Take it a step further and make it like bracket racing...start the newest drivers or stockers at gate 5 or 6 with 1-4 or 1-5 being a handicap. You could also score the gate double for stockers...maybe knock gate penalties down to 5 instead of 10 points.

We do a lot of the first 5 for Sportsman here with 6-10 being bonuses on the Pro courses and it works well...bypass gates are a great idea in my opinion...or maybe a 1 minute rule for harder gates...cant get through it in less then a minute then you can bypass without penalty...but they would have to at least try.

Just some thoughts.

[viper6171]

i don't totally agree on the fact that you can't be competitive without spending $ 600 or more on a rig , i have done pretty well with around $ 400 in my rig for sportsman class . i do agree that we need to help guide new people in this sport , give them pointers as they learn to crawl ( set-up help , guide them as they crawl on best ways to approach different lines/gates etc.) . this is one of the big things that helped me learn ,and made me feel welcome . the guys in my local group are very helpful with new people and those that are still learning . i don't know that a new class is the right answer or not , but i do agree that course design and set-up is a very important factor . we shouldn't set-up all of our courses like they are national events with all pro drivers , now with that said it does come down to all of us to help in the set-up of courses . now before anybody says anything i am not saying that we should set-up courses that are easy, because that would defeat the point of learning to crawl as well as making it boring to the guys that have been in the sport for awhile . courses should be challenging , but a shafty course should be a shafty course and an moa course should be an moa course.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by hoghead5150

a class for box stock would suck. the rigs are not as capable as people want. they watch other rigs that are modified and they want that. IF they are stuck in a box stock class you kill the ability for the new guy to modify his truck. now he CAN modify but then he gets bumped into another class and we are back where we started from! most people are not gonna wait till they learn to drive properly before starting to modify their rigs.

I don't think there is anywhere in any rc hobby where people buy a box stock rig and say "yeah, that's all I want. I don't need to go faster, or look better, or crawl better, or fly higher, or turn lefter, everything I'll ever need is in this one box I just bought".

A box stock class would be very short lived IMO. There is no way anyone would compete in it for long, knowing the limited capabilities, and seeing the other guys in the other classes pulling harder lines with modified rigs. It won't be long before the stock guys are tired of crappy tires, weak servos, floppy chassis, and rock hard shocks. They're going to want to modify, and they're going to want to move up to where everyone else has the freedom to do damn near anything they want.

Our little corner of the rc world was born around modifying existing rigs for better performance. Any departure from that or an encouragement to do otherwise would be sacrilege to what this is all about...competition level crawling is not, nor ever was about wheeling rtr rigs.

Keep the comps fun and enjoyable and encouraging, and new drivers won't care where they place.

[buggynutt]

I would like to throw in my 2cent's..lol I have never comped, so on that note.. I have been into crawlers for awhile now and have been to some comps. I love to watch the big boys do thier work. I would say that a newb class might have got me to go forward into the comp stage but I also understand the fact of the matter is I cant compete with most because I didnt have the rig to do so. I do have a rig now after lots of time that will crawl most things but still go back to video's and research what other rigs can do.. Its really frikin amazing what some of you do and as I look at my rig I simply say to myself Im not ready for that yet. But I would say I can do most of it. I look at rigs ask question on this site and just keep crawling. I have think that the newbs that go to comps and expect to crawl every gate must be looney because even the best out there pick the wrong lines sometimes and fail. I dont think people that buy into the sport understand that the driver is more important the crawler. I have driving a few comp rigs and couldnt go the same places that the owner of the rig just went up..lol all you seasoned drivers know what I mean. That being said, I think their is more of a need for there to be more practice comps or tutor times from the more adanced drivers, to show new drivers how to pick lines and use what they have rather than point at a gate and say drive up that. I hope this makes sence.

[WAM]

There are obviously regional differences. The last thing we need at WCRCC is more classes. Would our system work for everyone? Probably not. But here's what we've got.

Plenty of entrants in 2.2Pro. It's hard to finish in daylite. My opinion, super-hard courses. But I'm not a Pro guy. Half of them piss and moan and the other half like it that way. Their business.

We have a somewhat poorly attended Sportsman class (Including me). But we insulate it from domination by the big boys by not allowing competitors to enter both 2.2 classes. In fact we run on separate courses at the same time. Our class is self-contained. We build the courses and we do our own "community" judging. So don't represent much of a burden to the other clubies.

We allow newcomers to run Sporty regardless of spec. That means sometimes wraiths, sometimes XR10's. If they don't meet spec they run for fun but not season points. One of the club officers put together a pair of near-stock Scorpions for loaner rigs. A looky-loo drops in and we put him behind the wheel and point him to the Sportsman course. Or just bash around.

While I think we have a program that involves newcomers, we don't actually get many. Certainly not enough to do their own beginner class. But as I said, we have adequate entry and things are going well.

-- Bill, WestCoastRCCrawlers.com

[Charlie-III]

Originally Posted by WAM

There are obviously regional differences. The last thing we need at WCRCC is more classes. Would our system work for everyone? Probably not. But here's what we've got.

Plenty of entrants in 2.2Pro. It's hard to finish in daylight. My opinion, super-hard courses. But I'm not a Pro guy. Half of them piss and moan and the other half like it that way. Their business.

We have a somewhat poorly attended Sportsman class (Including me). But we insulate it from domination by the big boys by not allowing competitors to enter both 2.2 classes. In fact we run on separate courses at the same time. Our class is self-contained. We build the courses and we do our own "community" judging. So don't represent much of a burden to the other clubies.

We allow newcomers to run Sporty regardless of spec. That means sometimes wraiths, sometimes XR10's. If they don't meet spec they run for fun but not season points. One of the club officers put together a pair of near-stock Scorpions for loaner rigs. A looky-loo drops in and we put him behind the wheel and point him to the Sportsman course. Or just bash around.

While I think we have a program that involves newcomers, we don't actually get many. Certainly not enough to do their own beginner class. But as I said, we have adequate entry and things are going well.

-- Bill, WestCoastRCCrawlers.com

Interesting & decent way to do it. I give it .

I agree, the size of the club/group is one issue. If it's a small group, it's hard to add more stuff to do.

[ekd]

As a noob, I can say this: If I saw all this going on someplace, I wouldn't be lurking for long. If I knew there would be a short time when I couldn't possibly be considered to be "in the way", I'd bring something in to break.

I'm old... I saw slotcars "die" twice. The few guys who would always try their hearts out to keep fresh blood coming in were always overridden by the behavior by those who took it all (and themselves) too seriously.

Crawling is a fascinating facet of this hobby. If the hook is properly set, it can be very hard to dislodge.

Kudos to all you guys... both for your appropriate concern, and for your ability to still empathize with what a first timer faces.

Originally Posted by Manning

Chris, good subject.

At our local NWARC comps, if two or more new guys show up, we'll have a class for them. Have an extra minute or two, and do 60 points instead of 40, and do the 20 point bypass deal. Then we all gang up on them and try to give driving advice while they are on course. It probably scares the willies out of some drivers....

Then course design is key. I have a rep for building tough courses, but I always try to leave a way to straddle the gate and move on. That way the new guy can move on to the next gate. Yeah, it's a 10 pt penalty. It doesn't always work out as I plan, but it's always in mind when I'm setting gates. I probably do need to mellow out on the first 3-5 gates, huh Hoghead?

The last comp we had was at a new place that we've never comped at before. We overestimated the traction, by quite a bit in places. On the first course, the first two guys struggled with the 4th gate. I called it off and stacked rocks, and had those two guys run over again. At club level comps, this is an option. If it becomes apparent that the gate is too difficult and there's no way to straddle, fix it. But one has to make that decision quick.

[C*H*U*D]

Originally Posted by WAM

We allow newcomers to run Sporty regardless of spec. That means sometimes wraiths, sometimes XR10's. If they don't meet spec they run for fun but not season points. One of the club officers put together a pair of near-stock Scorpions for loaner rigs. A looky-loo drops in and we put him behind the wheel and point him to the Sportsman course. Or just bash around.

We have done this with scalers before. One guy showed up with an AX-10 and a scale body, but we let him run anyway instead of turning him away. We scored him, but didn't enter the points at the end of the day.

I like the idea of letting anyone run regardless of the rig in Sporty. If they don't meet spec, run them anyway and show them what they "would" have gotten for points had they been legal. They might come back with a legal rig next time.

I also like the idea of a loaner rig...I might have to look into that and maybe build one up. I think I have the parts.