Updated and revised SORRCA Rules and Specs

[sloppy]

Originally Posted by dingo2010

I have a few questions:

1. If a tire is not listed in the tire ban list, does that mean it is leagal i.e. proline hammers?
Correct any tire not on the list is legal..
2. You allow for 2.2's in the trail 2 class, however there are very few 2.2 tire selections under 5" o.d.. Shouldn't tires and wheels should be chosen based on how they fit the vehicle rather than a blanket size? I know that the axial cars are supposed to be 1/10 scale, however, they are probably closer to 1/8 scale. If you do the math on the scaling of wheels and tires, they are pretty huge anyway (Also you are at the mercy of the tire manufacturers sizes).

4.75 tire 1/12 scale=57" 1.9 wheel 1/12 scale=22.8"
1/10 scale=47.5" 1/10 scale=19"
1/8 scale=38" 1/8 scale=15.2"
You can technically run a 2.2 in class 1 if you like. Wheel size has less to do with a class division then tire size anyway.. We could only do so much to reflect scale size there is no way to limit different scale bodies. most tamiya stuff is 1/12 or smaller. Its up to the builder to decide what looks right on the body they choose, or if they want to build based purely on performance and class guidelines..
3. If your rig is going to be in class 3 based stricktly on tire size or wheels outside of the frame, but is not going to have dig or 4ws how do you intend them to be competitive in an ulimited class. It would be the same as running a shafty vs. an moa.
The driving rules are not complete yet. there will be some way to even things out in the rules.
4. there are alot of crawlers (1:1) that are being made into scalers, the actual vehicles don't have wheel wells, covers on the motor or even the inside of the vehicle passenger compartment (expanded metal floors). Alot of 4x4s remove inner fenderwells for more tire clearance anyway.
I dont see anywhere in the rules what materials would make up a interior, or that wheel wells are required they are just rewards if present.. No reason you couldn't build a interior with expanded metal floor.

these are just some concerns I have with the current rules and guidelines. I understand that it is practically impossible to make up rules to cover everyone's needs or concerns. But the way the rules read, they are designed more for guys that want to have a street class of vehicle more so than a purpose built vehicle. I think that the rules you have put in place are a great start, but will need a little tweeking to make them fit a wider variety of vehicles (At least in class 2 and 3).

comments/answers in Green.

I think you need to read the rules again. You can go very "purpose" built in both class 2 and 3. there are almost no limits in class 3. Class 2 has simple enough guidelines that you can go pretty far there to..

[dingo2010]

If you are going to have tire diameter limits in trail 2 maybe you could include a list of legal 2.2 tires for the class. I have only been able to find a couple of 2.2 tires that fits you 4.75 dia. limit rc4wd dune x/t and yokohama's. This puts a huge limit on what you can run in this class. you might as well just make it the 1.9 class.

[Tommy R]

Originally Posted by dingo2010

If you are going to have tire diameter limits in trail 2 maybe you could include a list of legal 2.2 tires for the class. I have only been able to find a couple of 2.2 tires that fits you 4.75 dia. limit rc4wd dune x/t and yokohama's. This puts a huge limit on what you can run in this class. you might as well just make it the 1.9 class.

We don't have a "legal tire list" for any class because the list would be too extensive and we wanted to keep the rules as short and concise as we could. You likely read that many folks were displeased with the length of the originally released rule set so we listened and shrunk it down quite a bit. Nonetheless, calling Class 2 the "1.9 class" wouldn't be accurate since there are 2.2 and 1.55 tires that are legal. Heck, I don't doubt that one day there will be 1.9 tires that go straight into Class 3 due to their tall height. And that would be fine, too.

[Difuser]

Originally Posted by dingo2010

If you are going to have tire diameter limits in trail 2 maybe you could include a list of legal 2.2 tires for the class. I have only been able to find a couple of 2.2 tires that fits you 4.75 dia. limit rc4wd dune x/t and yokohama's. This puts a huge limit on what you can run in this class. you might as well just make it the 1.9 class.

And again why the limits were based on Mfg overall diameter of the tire. We had people for scale reasons that want to use a Yokohama on a 2.2 rim. Or a rock lox stretched over a 2.2 or a 1.55 tire wheel combo all legal and too many reasons not to call it a 1.9 class.
Leave the creativity to the builder.

Also with a legal list if we miss one tire and a mfg gets upset. It already happened with a list published by a local that made to this board....Find the tire you like if it 's under the diameter limits run it. How is that limiting?

[dingo2010]

that is a great dream that one day 1.9's will be 6" tall, but the fact of the matter is that today they are not. I have gone as far as to contact redline and ask if they we planning on making more than one size (dia.) tire per wheel size, and they repied that they don't have plans to do that at this time. Anyway I guess that the guys making the rules (which I know need to be in place to standardize the competition aspect of this hobby) just have a focused idea of what they want, I find it hard to believe that guys that want to have a performanced based rig, as apposed to a rig that looks good but does not perform well will run a smaller wheel and tire just because they can. Most guys go to the larger tire diameter for increased ground clearance. I really appreciate all of the feed back from everyone responding to my questions. It is helping me to decide if I want to pursue this hobby competitively, or just try to do some fun trail running with a bunch of people that enjoy that part of the hobby.

[Rogue]

Originally Posted by dingo2010

that is a great dream that one day 1.9's will be 6" tall, but the fact of the matter is that today they are not. I have gone as far as to contact redline and ask if they we planning on making more than one size (dia.) tire per wheel size, and they repied that they don't have plans to do that at this time. Anyway I guess that the guys making the rules (which I know need to be in place to standardize the competition aspect of this hobby) just have a focused idea of what they want, I find it hard to believe that guys that want to have a performanced based rig, as apposed to a rig that looks good but does not perform well will run a smaller wheel and tire just because they can. Most guys go to the larger tire diameter for increased ground clearance. I really appreciate all of the feed back from everyone responding to my questions. It is helping me to decide if I want to pursue this hobby competitively, or just try to do some fun trail running with a bunch of people that enjoy that part of the hobby.

Just because one specific tire is the tallest will not make it the best. Sure a lot of people will run the tallest, but last year at MSD nationals, the Trail Class was won by someone running smaller then the largest sized tire available. As it sits right now no tire over 5.75" would be legal. So a 6" 1.9 sized tire would not be allowed anyways. My opinion here, a 6" tall 1.9 tire would be a nightmare trying to get a foam to work, I could see that tire folding over on the slightest side hill.
There is nothing stopping you from building your rig anyway that you would like. If you need or want that tall of a tire you can run it, just not in a competition. You could have a couple different sets of tires, one for trail riding with your buddies that enjoy that. Then if you want to compete, slap on a legal set of tires and go have some fun at the comp with a different set of buddies.

[bart]

Originally Posted by sloppy

Its half of the tread width in class 1. Not 1/2"

"• The tread of the tires cannot extend outside of the wheel wells more then 1/2 of the tread width."

OK that helps i think i will need finder flare with my 3 in wide tires

[dingo2010]

Originally Posted by Rogue

Just because one specific tire is the tallest will not make it the best. Sure a lot of people will run the tallest, but last year at MSD nationals, the Trail Class was won by someone running smaller then the largest sized tire available. As it sits right now no tire over 5.75" would be legal. So a 6" 1.9 sized tire would not be allowed anyways. My opinion here, a 6" tall 1.9 tire would be a nightmare trying to get a foam to work, I could see that tire folding over on the slightest side hill.
There is nothing stopping you from building your rig anyway that you would like. If you need or want that tall of a tire you can run it, just not in a competition. You could have a couple different sets of tires, one for trail riding with your buddies that enjoy that. Then if you want to compete, slap on a legal set of tires and go have some fun at the comp with a different set of buddies.

I think you are missing my point. If you put a tire diameter restriction on trail 2 you already restrict the use of 2.2 wheels in the class that is what I am trying to convey. If you take a look at how the tire sizes add up it becomes obvious that 1.55 (tire dia. range 3"-4.27") and 1.9 (tire dia. range 3.8"-4.75") are very close, 2.2 (tire dia. range 4.05"-5.5") with only two choices of tires that meet the 4.75 dia. reqirement. You get a minimum of 19 choices with 1.9 and 10 choices with 1.55. This seems fair to everyone? It seems to me that trail 2 could easily be split into 2 subclasses based on wheel selection. I would also like to see the manufacturers make more tires in the 5" dia. range, because that seems to be about the max size you can fit under a lexan body with fender flares (and minimum body contact). I would like to think that I am not the only guy on this site that has this concern.

[Difuser]

Welcome to 4 yrs ago there were mostly 5" tires around. People wanted larger so the mfg's made them and 5" dia tires went by the wayside...
Plus some people do run 1.9's stretched over a 2.0 and 2.2 rim for better sidehill and a lower profile tire. That is why rim diameter does not rule the class tire diameter does. If you look at the range of tire diameters it is a logical clearance progression between the classes. The smaller 2.2 rim tire combos are still competitive against a 1.9 combo and might sidehill or climb better.
Sounds like you should have been in the riles committee you obviously have considered alot we all missed....

[sloppy]

Originally Posted by dingo2010

I think you are missing my point. If you put a tire diameter restriction on trail 2 you already restrict the use of 2.2 wheels in the class that is what I am trying to convey. If you take a look at how the tire sizes add up it becomes obvious that 1.55 (tire dia. range 3"-4.27") and 1.9 (tire dia. range 3.8"-4.75") are very close, 2.2 (tire dia. range 4.05"-5.5") with only two choices of tires that meet the 4.75 dia. reqirement. You get a minimum of 19 choices with 1.9 and 10 choices with 1.55. This seems fair to everyone? It seems to me that trail 2 could easily be split into 2 subclasses based on wheel selection. I would also like to see the manufacturers make more tires in the 5" dia. range, because that seems to be about the max size you can fit under a lexan body with fender flares (and minimum body contact). I would like to think that I am not the only guy on this site that has this concern.

What point are you making?

There is no restriction at all on 2.2's if you want to run them and they are larger then 4.75" there is a class for them. for the other ones on the market that are under 4.75" you can run them in class 2, or even class 1 if under the 4.19.

Manufactures make tires based on demand, Not much demand for the ultra low Pro look in the Off road community. Except for the stadium truck racing community, which many of those tire options there carry over and could be used..

and there are more then "just 2" 2.2 tires that fit under the 4.75" height limit. Proline makes at least 4 that I can think of that would be legal.. Imex makes 4 legal tires. and I can think of a few questionable tires that are also legal using just the tire height.. Just because you can only think of 2 does not mean there are only 2 tires that are options..

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by dingo2010

I think you are missing my point. If you put a tire diameter restriction on trail 2 you already restrict the use of 2.2 wheels in the class that is what I am trying to convey. If you take a look at how the tire sizes add up it becomes obvious that 1.55 (tire dia. range 3"-4.27") and 1.9 (tire dia. range 3.8"-4.75") are very close, 2.2 (tire dia. range 4.05"-5.5") with only two choices of tires that meet the 4.75 dia. reqirement. You get a minimum of 19 choices with 1.9 and 10 choices with 1.55. This seems fair to everyone? It seems to me that trail 2 could easily be split into 2 subclasses based on wheel selection. I would also like to see the manufacturers make more tires in the 5" dia. range, because that seems to be about the max size you can fit under a lexan body with fender flares (and minimum body contact). I would like to think that I am not the only guy on this site that has this concern.

Just because this is different than how things have previously been done, doesn't mean that it isn't better.

We put alot of time and thought into the way the classes were decided. This was decided to be a far better method than the previous wheel size method. Now people have considerably more choices per class than they once did before. As for the sizes chosen, The line has to be drawn somewhere. After much discussion, we decided on the sizes listed in the rules.

As for your argument that everybody will run the largest diameter possible...that has been an argument throughout all sides of of competitive crawling. The truth, however, is that people will run what they like or what works for them...not necessarily the biggest tire available. The biggest hole in this argument is that regardless of what you used as the deciding factor (wheels, tires, etc...) there would always be people like yourself who would argue that "everybody is going to use the biggest available." Well, that just isn't the case.

I have a couple examples.

First off, in USRCCA competition, 6 inch tall tires are allowed for use in competition. While there are some drivers who do use larger tires, I'd be surprised if that number was higher than maybe 3 to 5 percent of all competitors...probably far lower. I, personally, run 6" tall tires on my berg in some terrain, and 5.5" tires in other places. I also run Comp Claws on my Sportsman, even though people try to claim that they're too short to be competitive. It's just simply not the case, and I win comps with them.

In scale competition, last year (and in years past) the tallest tire did not always win...not even close. There were some areas where Flat Irons simply hooked up better than Rok Lox in the 1.9 class, even though they were shorter. There were also times when ProLine Super Swampers hooked up the best. Diameter has far less to do with performance.

Please read over the replies with an open mind, and try to understand what we're typing, you'll realize that maybe, just maybe, people with considerably more experience than yourself have come up with a better way to do this.

I hope that you give Scale Competition a chance before you simply right it off due to some idea that you have. You might find that you actually enjoy it and it's not the big deal that you're making it. In the mean time, you may want to sit back and realize that you are actually in the minority with your thoughts on this issue.

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Well said,Eviltwin.

[dingo2010]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

Just because this is different than how things have previously been done, doesn't mean that it isn't better.

We put alot of time and thought into the way the classes were decided. This was decided to be a far better method than the previous wheel size method. Now people have considerably more choices per class than they once did before. As for the sizes chosen, The line has to be drawn somewhere. After much discussion, we decided on the sizes listed in the rules.

As for your argument that everybody will run the largest diameter possible...that has been an argument throughout all sides of of competitive crawling. The truth, however, is that people will run what they like or what works for them...not necessarily the biggest tire available. The biggest hole in this argument is that regardless of what you used as the deciding factor (wheels, tires, etc...) there would always be people like yourself who would argue that "everybody is going to use the biggest available." Well, that just isn't the case.

I have a couple examples.

First off, in USRCCA competition, 6 inch tall tires are allowed for use in competition. While there are some drivers who do use larger tires, I'd be surprised if that number was higher than maybe 3 to 5 percent of all competitors...probably far lower. I, personally, run 6" tall tires on my berg in some terrain, and 5.5" tires in other places. I also run Comp Claws on my Sportsman, even though people try to claim that they're too short to be competitive. It's just simply not the case, and I win comps with them.

In scale competition, last year (and in years past) the tallest tire did not always win...not even close. There were some areas where Flat Irons simply hooked up better than Rok Lox in the 1.9 class, even though they were shorter. There were also times when ProLine Super Swampers hooked up the best. Diameter has far less to do with performance.

Please read over the replies with an open mind, and try to understand what we're typing, you'll realize that maybe, just maybe, people with considerably more experience than yourself have come up with a better way to do this.

I hope that you give Scale Competition a chance before you simply right it off due to some idea that you have. You might find that you actually enjoy it and it's not the big deal that you're making it. In the mean time, you may want to sit back and realize that you are actually in the minority with your thoughts on this issue.

Look, I understand that you all have been at this longer than I have, because I have only been doing it for just over a year. I admit that I don't know the progresssion of the tire sizing over the last 5 years. But it makes it hard to build a car to scale that you would like to have compete in one class, and because of a rule that has nothing to do with the scale look of the vehicle it is placed in a higher class. I have a build posted on the 2.2 scaler section , that I was building for my 10 year old daughter, and it will be in class 3 by your specks, placing it against more capable cars. I can build a class 3 car with dig, 4ws, 5.75" tires for myself, and I will after this one. But my daughter is new to the hobby, and I feel she will struggle in this class making it unenjoyable. I will respond to eviltwin and ask him to pm me a list of 2.2 tire that meet the height requirement to put on my scx10 tr so I can make that one trail 2 leagal. The 6" diameter comment that I put in an earlier post was a joke, I have been unsuccessful at finding a large range of tires to fit the 2.2 wheel (for trail 2 class) so that I can have a choice of tire for crawling, I also made the comment earlier that tires over 5" don't seem to fit under a full bodied uncut car very well. I don't want to stretch or cut tires to make them work, I just want to buy some and put them on. I am in no way trying to knock your rules and classes that you have made, I am simply trying to understand why they are what they are.

[EvilTwin v2]

Look, instead of worrying about your daughter being competitive, maybe you should teach her lessons on sportsmanship and having fun.

I tried to post a professional and well thought out reply to your whining. Instead of taking anything from my or anybody else's replies, you just continue to whine about things. It appears as though you haven't been in a scale competition, yet you have this attitude that you know it all. Regardless, I'm done with you. Have fun...or don't. I really don't care at this point.

Originally Posted by dingo2010

Look, I understand that you all have been at this longer than I have, because I have only been doing it for just over a year. I admit that I don't know the progresssion of the tire sizing over the last 5 years. But it makes it hard to build a car to scale that you would like to have compete in one class, and because of a rule that has nothing to do with the scale look of the vehicle it is placed in a higher class. I have a build posted on the 2.2 scaler section , that I was building for my 10 year old daughter, and it will be in class 3 by your specks, placing it against more capable cars. I can build a class 3 car with dig, 4ws, 5.75" tires for myself, and I will after this one. But my daughter is new to the hobby, and I feel she will struggle in this class making it unenjoyable. I will respond to eviltwin and ask him to pm me a list of 2.2 tire that meet the height requirement to put on my scx10 tr so I can make that one trail 2 leagal. The 6" diameter comment that I put in an earlier post was a joke, I have been unsuccessful at finding a large range of tires to fit the 2.2 wheel (for trail 2 class) so that I can have a choice of tire for crawling, I also made the comment earlier that tires over 5" don't seem to fit under a full bodied uncut car very well. I don't want to stretch or cut tires to make them work, I just want to buy some and put them on. I am in no way trying to knock your rules and classes that you have made, I am simply trying to understand why they are what they are.

[dingo2010]

Originally Posted by sloppy

What point are you making?

There is no restriction at all on 2.2's if you want to run them and they are larger then 4.75" there is a class for them. for the other ones on the market that are under 4.75" you can run them in class 2, or even class 1 if under the 4.19.

Manufactures make tires based on demand, Not much demand for the ultra low Pro look in the Off road community. Except for the stadium truck racing community, which many of those tire options there carry over and could be used..

and there are more then "just 2" 2.2 tires that fit under the 4.75" height limit. Proline makes at least 4 that I can think of that would be legal.. Imex makes 4 legal tires. and I can think of a few questionable tires that are also legal using just the tire height.. Just because you can only think of 2 does not mean there are only 2 tires that are options..

please pm me the list of "leagal 2.2 tires" as I am not smart enough to find them on my own. Proline flat iron 2.2 are marked on the side wall 4.83 or 4.93, and hammers are 4.93 (I have them currently on my tr) which by my small minded ability to do math makes them larger than 4.75". Please help me to understand where you are comming from. Short course truck tires are designed more for running fast on the track, and compounds are not necessarily for crawling (that is why they are not listed on the manufacturers website under rock crawling).

[dingo2010]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

Look, instead of worrying about your daughter being competitive, maybe you should teach her lessons on sportsmanship and having fun.

I tried to post a professional and well thought out reply to your whining. Instead of taking anything from my or anybody else's replies, you just continue to whine about things. It appears as though you haven't been in a scale competition, yet you have this attitude that you know it all. Regardless, I'm done with you. Have fun...or don't. I really don't care at this point.

thanks for all of your help, sorry that you could not answer my question completely. I just wanted a list of acceptable tires because I am confused about what is acceptable, and don't want to buy tires to find out that they are not leagal. that is all. If that is whining then it is what it is. Maybe sloppy will send me a list or places to look that I haven't checked.

[ROCKEDUP RICKY]

Originally Posted by dingo2010

thanks for all of your help, sorry that you could not answer my question completely. I just wanted a list of acceptable tires because I am confused about what is acceptable, and don't want to buy tires to find out that they are not leagal. that is all. If that is whining then it is what it is. Maybe sloppy will send me a list or places to look that I haven't checked.

If they are not on the band list they are legal. If they are under the max size tire for what ever class you are running then they are legal. Can't get much easier than that.

IF Sloppy sends you a list ,I think he should send one to the 47,353 members of RCC too. that is a real number as of this morning.

[Difuser]

Dingo do some homework there is a list of tires posted in this forum, the tire forum and a few other places I can't think of off the top of my head.

If you're looking for help coming on here posting that we all have our collective heads up our ass and didn't really think through rules is shortsighted and is not going to win you any favors....

If you are looking for a size of tire then work with the diameters and go 1.9 with a large tire. You'll quickly find tire diameter is not all that you want...

As rocked up said bring her to an event who cares if her truck is not the top spec. If tires are all youre looking at then you really haven't been in this long. Scale points, build style, axles all have a lot more to do than specifically tires. You'll also find it's more about hanging with and meeting new friends than an out and out A Main win....

[dingo2010]

Originally Posted by Difuser

Dingo do some homework there is a list of tires posted in this forum, the tire forum and a few other places I can't think of off the top of my head.

If you're looking for help coming on here posting that we all have our collective heads up our ass and didn't really think through rules is shortsighted and is not going to win you any favors....

If you are looking for a size of tire then work with the diameters and go 1.9 with a large tire. You'll quickly find tire diameter is not all that you want...

As rocked up said bring her to an event who cares if her truck is not the top spec. If tires are all youre looking at then you really haven't been in this long. Scale points, build style, axles all have a lot more to do than specifically tires. You'll also find it's more about hanging with and meeting new friends than an out and out A Main win....

Look, I don't think anyone has their head up their a$$, we don't have a trail club here yet (bmuzz is trying to get one going), and I am in this for the fun of it. It is not that I am trying to win top honors for the most scale vehicle at the comp. I just want to pass tech so i can comp. I am trying to work with what I currently have which is 4 sets of 2.2 billet wheels and I want to buy tires to put one of my vehicles into trail 2 (this is on my tr not the new one). I took my daugter to a fun run, and she loved it that is why I started the new build (i didn't want two identical vehicles). By the way I have written how appreciative I am of the replies before today. I currently compete in regular crawler comps (parc) and I am by no means top dog check my stats (I suck), but I continue to comp for the fun of it and to get better. Anyway, I will continue to re-read the rules as I have printed them out to have on hand. this will be my last post, so I don't piss to many people off. Have fun out there!

[dezfan]

Are we having fun yet?