2015 scale rules discussion or question thead

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by 2003EDGE

I agree on C1 needing to focused on scale more than anything. I also think that we need to take a look at the courses that are being made without a C1 vehicle in mind. I keep seeing courses that would make a c2 rig have to do some work being used for C1 courses.

Class 1 should be more about scale, I agree. Problem is, about 1/4 of guys that compete in scale comps want to win at all costs. It's the nature of the beast, guys are competitive. At the Rocky Mountain Scale Natiinals this year, I thought the Class 1 courses were reasonable. In our local club, our courses are pretty easy and usually come down to time, not points. It allows everyone to have fun, including the really good competitive drivers. Class 2 is a different story
Bottom line, these are competitions and the courses have to be difficult enough to push the top 10-15 drivers. If the courses are too hard then you probably need to dial your truck in better, learn to drive better or stick to using you uber scale rig for trail runs with your buddies.

[danbillyboo]

Hi guys ! Good job about your rules and times !
I have a question about tires. Can I have strech tires (1.9 tires mounted with 2.2 wheels) in class 2 if the outside dia. respect the class ?
Thanks !

[btoungette]

Originally Posted by danbillyboo

Hi guys ! Good job about your rules and times !
I have a question about tires. Can I have strech tires (1.9 tires mounted with 2.2 wheels) in class 2 if the outside dia. respect the class ?
Thanks !

Check back in the thread a ways... Post #127

[danbillyboo]

Ok thanks but it's legal in class 3 because 1.9 Proline XL are class 3. But is it legal in class 2 ?


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[btoungette]

Originally Posted by danbillyboo

Ok thanks but it's legal in class 3 because 1.9 Proline XL are class 3. But is it legal in class 2 ?
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If the tire manufacturer specs are within the class limits, it's legal. The Pro-line 1.9 TSL XLs (4.75" tall) are Class 2 legal, but the Pro-line 1.9 Flat Iron XLs (4.76") are not.

[danbillyboo]

Ok thank you for your fast answer !


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[Greatscott]

Originally Posted by doublej

Where is the distortion? I think the problem is not in the rules it self - Its from the human factor that we will never avoid.......
Until you run it, score it, spend a season using it - Its just words on paper. That is hard for 90% of the world to wrap our heads around. Once you spend the time using them things make more sense and it all flows as system.

Many thanks for the reply!

I do have more than a season using it, and it still doesn't make much sense. Bad driver, lots of scale points, finishes near the top. Good driver, no so many scale points, finishes behind the bad guy; this is where the distortion lies. I can see the logic in class one, but for two and three, not so much. My personal opinion is that class 2 and 3 should be mostly about how you drive and use the equipment on the rig, rather than seeing how much useless junk can be piled on for scale points.

For most comps I have been just running my rigs, not terribly worried about course or scale points for myself, but I have taken note of who placed where. It has seemed to consistently fall out that you have the best three or four drivers with a good amount of scale points on top, then you have the bad drivers with lots of scale points in the middle, then the good drivers with few scale points behind them.

With scalers and comps, my main point to going is to have fun and hang out with fellow RC geeks. But when you do take the time to set up course, judge, and tally points, an interest is taken in that part of it too.

[doublej]

Originally Posted by Greatscott

Many thanks for the reply!

I do have more than a season using it, and it still doesn't make much sense. Bad driver, lots of scale points, finishes near the top. Good driver, no so many scale points, finishes behind the bad guy; this is where the distortion lies. I can see the logic in class one, but for two and three, not so much. My personal opinion is that class 2 and 3 should be mostly about how you drive and use the equipment on the rig, rather than seeing how much useless junk can be piled on for scale points.

For most comps I have been just running my rigs, not terribly worried about course or scale points for myself, but I have taken note of who placed where. It has seemed to consistently fall out that you have the best three or four drivers with a good amount of scale points on top, then you have the bad drivers with lots of scale points in the middle, then the good drivers with few scale points behind them.

With scalers and comps, my main point to going is to have fun and hang out with fellow RC geeks. But when you do take the time to set up course, judge, and tally points, an interest is taken in that part of it too.

You sorta of answered your own issue in my opinion that's why I'm not seeing the true issue.
"Great driver with full scale points wins."
Ypur best drivers are normally your most competitive guys. So they don't just take the time in the runs, but also the build, drive time, tuning, ect ect.
That's why they win - Time + effort normal equals skill.

But that's how the scale points help to equal things also.
"Bad drivers with scale parts piled on..."
First how do you pile scale points on?
The bottom 14 or so points of the scale tally sheet is the only "pilable" points that I agree is some scale "junk and toys". But even that's not fully true bc a spare and winch is in that listing. (Talking about Functional and Non Functional scale items section).
So let's say you can get 10 points of "scale toys" (gas can, fuel cell, ect...)
That is only 1 free gate over someone without those 10 points. The rest of the scale points is a hand cap in rig styles that has limiting performance items.
CMS, Hardbody, full interior......

So how far behind the Great drivers and how far ahead of the good drivers are these bad drivers? Is it the scale points really pushing them over?
Or does all the math in the rules get jumbled and make it seem that way?

[Rooster87]

I have a question on the "forward progress" after a reverse rule. I was judging another judge and he was trying a steep climb. he hit a ledge that everyone was having trouble with. he reversed about a truck length., I called it out, and he tryed the climb again. He reversed about half a truck length and I called out another reverse penalty. He said "No its not another reverse, I havent made forward progress from the last reverse." I thought he was nuts but then I reread the rules and though, well, It could be read that way. Official Thoughts?

[War Pig]

Originally Posted by Rooster87

I have a question on the "forward progress" after a reverse rule. I was judging another judge and he was trying a steep climb. he hit a ledge that everyone was having trouble with. he reversed about a truck length., I called it out, and he tryed the climb again. He reversed about half a truck length and I called out another reverse penalty. He said "No its not another reverse, I havent made forward progress from the last reverse." I thought he was nuts but then I reread the rules and though, well, It could be read that way. Official Thoughts?

After a reverse, as soon as the tires rotate in a forward motion it's considered forward progress. At this point, if you stop and reverse again, it's another reverse penalty.

[Rooster87]

Thats what I though, thanks for the clarification

[johnnyh66]

Originally Posted by War Pig

After a reverse, as soon as the tires rotate in a forward motion it's considered forward progress. At this point, if you stop and reverse again, it's another reverse penalty.

Originally Posted by Rooster87

Thats what I though, thanks for the clarification

Of course, this is all dependent on how the local judges decide to interpret the rule.
In our club, it's as WarPig just stated but I've comped with several other clubs that score it differently...

[I.D.10.T]

I have this new rig in my collection and have wondered if it would be C3 legal. The rule I am unsure about it this one.

• Vehicles must resemble a real 1:1 rig. It will be up to the collective group to vote on whether a questionable rig is accepted or not.

This one has a 1:1 big brother called the Nightmare Buggy. Would it be legal as long as all the other measurement rules agree?

[sf2000xj]

Originally Posted by I.D.10.T

I have this new rig in my collection and have wondered if it would be C3 legal. The rule I am unsure about it this one.

• Vehicles must resemble a real 1:1 rig. It will be up to the collective group to vote on whether a questionable rig is accepted or not.

This one has a 1:1 big brother called the Nightmare Buggy. Would it be legal as long as all the other measurement rules agree?

I think you're good there as long as you meet all other requirements. Not to sound cliche but that's a damn nice looking rig.


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[derrick.johnston]

I've seen so many posts about how c1 is getting away from scale and turning competitive. Has the sorrca committee ever discussed making 1 axle leaf sprung as a requirement for c1? If would really level the field and open it up to being scale oriented again.

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[winnerone23]

Originally Posted by Greatscott

Many thanks for the reply!

I do have more than a season using it, and it still doesn't make much sense. Bad driver, lots of scale points, finishes near the top. Good driver, no so many scale points, finishes behind the bad guy; this is where the distortion lies. I can see the logic in class one, but for two and three, not so much. My personal opinion is that class 2 and 3 should be mostly about how you drive and use the equipment on the rig, rather than seeing how much useless junk can be piled on for scale points.

For most comps I have been just running my rigs, not terribly worried about course or scale points for myself, but I have taken note of who placed where. It has seemed to consistently fall out that you have the best three or four drivers with a good amount of scale points on top, then you have the bad drivers with lots of scale points in the middle, then the good drivers with few scale points behind them.

With scalers and comps, my main point to going is to have fun and hang out with fellow RC geeks. But when you do take the time to set up course, judge, and tally points, an interest is taken in that part of it too.

I use to feel this way as well.. I Hated scale points and this didn't give a shat about scale..

I was the only driver to run 3 perfect course's and got 5th place.. Guy in 4th place had 28(half) scale points.. He has me beat and didn't even have to drive..

It drove me straight to the comp side of the hobby.. Which I love!

Now, all comp rig's are built.. Need something to build... Gotta build!

After some years, I now have a truck that meets all ends.. Scale points, scale looking, and performs.. I have this in C1 and C2..

I find myself enjoying scale a whole lot more! I like scale.. Ssshhhhhh.. Don't tell the comp guys! ;)

I further see both sides now.. Scale gives the serious builder, that enjoys driving, the ability to compete and not have the best working truck..
As to where the serious driver, that's not so much into all the scaleness, the ability to do just what they want and still drive with performance in mind.

I use to be the ladder and did pretty good with mid range points.. 15-18 half points..

Originally Posted by derrick.johnston

I've seen so many posts about how c1 is getting away from scale and turning competitive. Has the sorrca committee ever discussed making 1 axle leaf sprung as a requirement for c1? If would really level the field and open it up to being scale oriented again.

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Is leaf sprung a disadvantage?

My TF2 is full leaf.. It seems to hold its own..

[Scrap]

Forced cart suspension from a million years ago? With crappy leafs that can't take a beating?
Sounds like a perfect plan to kill c1.

What about a vehicle has to have atleast 50 scale points with no upper limit for c1.

While we are on the topic of scale points.
Should the functional scale item limit be raised from 8 points?
Now if you have lights, a winch and a spare that is mounted some how to your vehicle you are already maxed out. I can understand the idea behind this limit so that people don't make a moving carbage dump. I am all for the 6 point limit for the exterior items. But the functional limit should be raised. Or the winch, the spare and the lights should be calculated seperately.

[doublej]

Originally Posted by derrick.johnston

I've seen so many posts about how c1 is getting away from scale and turning competitive. Has the sorrca committee ever discussed making 1 axle leaf sprung as a requirement for c1? If would really level the field and open it up to being scale oriented again.

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We are talking about class 1 rigs that dodge cones on a course and lowest score wins - right?
That's a comp, so it's suppose to be competitive......

[derrick.johnston]

Originally Posted by doublej

We are talking about class 1 rigs that dodge cones on a course and lowest score wins - right?
That's a comp, so it's suppose to be competitive......

Yes we are. And don't get me wrong. I love the competition/competitiveness of it. But... and I say this with all good intentions. (The road to hell and bla bla bla) I am not trying to start anything or stir any pots. I love the scale side of it too. I honestly think nothing looks cooler than a leaf sprung rig. Expecially when going for scale. But you can't really compare leafs to 4 links. Right now all my rigs are set to 4 and 3 links with a panhard. (So me advocating for leafs has nothing to do with my setup) I would just like to see more of a incentive for a leaf spring class even. But that's just my opinion. Hopefully I haven't hurt any feel goods and you will at the very least take my suggestion into consideration. Thanks

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[War Pig]

Originally Posted by derrick.johnston

I've seen so many posts about how c1 is getting away from scale and turning competitive. Has the sorrca committee ever discussed making 1 axle leaf sprung as a requirement for c1? If would really level the field and open it up to being scale oriented again.

No. That would be dumb. Not all 4x4's use leaf springs. How scale is it to force people to use leaf springs when many 1:1's use coil springs?

Originally Posted by winnerone23

I use to feel this way as well.. I Hated scale points and this didn't give a shat about scale..

I was the only driver to run 3 perfect course's and got 5th place.. Guy in 4th place had 28(half) scale points.. He has me beat and didn't even have to drive..

It drove me straight to the comp side of the hobby.. Which I love!

Now, all comp rig's are built.. Need something to build... Gotta build!

After some years, I now have a truck that meets all ends.. Scale points, scale looking, and performs.. I have this in C1 and C2..

I find myself enjoying scale a whole lot more! I like scale.. Ssshhhhhh.. Don't tell the comp guys! ;)

I further see both sides now.. Scale gives the serious builder, that enjoys driving, the ability to compete and not have the best working truck..
As to where the serious driver, that's not so much into all the scaleness, the ability to do just what they want and still drive with performance in mind.

I use to be the ladder and did pretty good with mid range points.. 15-18 half points..

Is leaf sprung a disadvantage?

My TF2 is full leaf.. It seems to hold its own..

Somebody gets it!

Originally Posted by Scrap

Forced cart suspension from a million years ago? With crappy leafs that can't take a beating?
Sounds like a perfect plan to kill c1.

What about a vehicle has to have atleast 50 scale points with no upper limit for c1.

While we are on the topic of scale points.
Should the functional scale item limit be raised from 8 points?
Now if you have lights, a winch and a spare that is mounted some how to your vehicle you are already maxed out. I can understand the idea behind this limit so that people don't make a moving carbage dump. I am all for the 6 point limit for the exterior items. But the functional limit should be raised. Or the winch, the spare and the lights should be calculated seperately.

It has been discussed, but then you're just making it easier to get "junk" scale points since many functional items (winch, fairlead, lights, bungee, winch hook) are things you should have to begin with, and don't really effect performance. The spare tire is the only one I believe should be separate and more points. It's easy enough to get a bunch of points (-14) from the accessory section, I seriously doubt it will change.