* Official Rules for 2009 Scale Nationals *

[2JSC]

As far as I'm concerned, this is just another penis waving competition. Ya'll be gay in the woods and don't post any vids.



I'll build what I like and call it scale... and you can just shove it.

[War Pig]

I'm done.
I'm just going to build the courses and let Ben deal with all the scale rules BS .
See you all next month.

[Grizzly4x4]

I've never understood the bias against trucks without driveshafts. As long as it looks reasonably scale what's the big deal?
The first crawler I built was a 2.2 Clod that I felt was quite scale.

If the rules were written to exclude MOAs from the start then that's one thing, but I have to say that Jason's point is valid.

Slobin, Jason isn't trying to be difficult he's just trying to exploit the rules as much as possible to build a winning rig. That's just the nature of any competition.

[slobin3d]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

I've never understood the bias against trucks without driveshafts. As long as it looks reasonably scale what's the big deal?
The first crawler I built was a 2.2 Clod that I felt was quite scale.

If the rules were written to exclude MOAs from the start then that's one thing, but I have to say that Jason's point is valid.

Slobin, Jason isn't trying to be difficult he's just trying to exploit the rules as much as possible to build a winning rig. That's just the nature of any competition.

its not the message its the method, maybe I misread his intent but it seems to me he's trying to prove some point beyond the rules. But maybe I'm just to dense. I'm going to bed.....

[HotRodJosh]

Originally Posted by jason

No I have no intention to make it independant suspension, you asked me to show you a 1:1 trail rig that has MOA. That rig has a motor on each axle.

Haha...technically speaking, the rig you posted DOESN"T even have axles.....so, your arguement holds no water. Now, if the hydraulic motor was on the INPUT of an axle, like on the front axle of a Gradall forklift, then you'd be OK.

Scale should look and operate like a real rig that you'd see on the trail in the real world. Not some ONE-OFF rig someone built as a technical "exercise"......
But more important than that, the 1st rule of Scale should be to not take it too seriously and have fun.....leave all the whiners to those goofy looking Comp rigs.:-P

[XSRCdesign]

Originally Posted by HotRodJosh

Haha...technically speaking, the rig you posted DOESN"T even have axles.....so, your arguement holds no water. Now, if the hydraulic motor was on the INPUT of an axle, like on the front axle of a Gradall forklift, then you'd be OK.

Scale should look and operate like a real rig that you'd see on the trail in the real world. Not some ONE-OFF rig someone built as a technical "exercise"......
But more important than that, the 1st rule of Scale should be to not take it too seriously and have fun.....leave all the whiners to those goofy looking Comp rigs.:-P

His argument is the rules changed actually..

Someone else made it about the rig.

Personally I dont think MOA should be allowed, but also agree that is a big rule change, either way, I'm glad I'm not making the decisions

[jason]

Originally Posted by slobin3d

You really want an answer, You are being difficult because people do the same to you over the usrrca rules, its your prerogative and by the letter of the law you are correct,

By the letter of the law I am correct? What else do we have to go by than the set of rules you and your crew have laid out? Isn't the whole thing based off of that set of rules?

Originally Posted by slobin3d

but on a personal side note this isn't a a competition in which you really drive to see who's the best, or what truck is the best, its to have fun, and win some cool prizes,

Wow what a slap in the face to all the competitors of this event. Why even keep score then? Why even have a top 5 shootout? Why give out trophies?

Originally Posted by slobin3d

so by fudging the rules to win, in essence your either saying your only in it for the prizes or your doing it to be a pain and exploit the loop holes.

I didn't fudge the rules at all. I was building a rig that fit 100% within the rules that I was given. If I would have built a rig with rock force axles would it have been a problem? I've never seen a 1:1 rig with worm drives.

Originally Posted by slobin3d

Either way it won't stop the rest of us from having fun, and I guess the up side is your painful exploitation of the rules helps improve them for next year, so thanks I think.....

I'm not trying to stop anyone from having fun at all, I was just trying to build the most capable rig that I could build under the rules that were given to me. Then midgame the rules were changed. My little sister used to do that shit all the time when we were growing up;)

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

If the rules were written to exclude MOAs from the start then that's one thing, but I have to say that Jason's point is valid.

Slobin, Jason isn't trying to be difficult he's just trying to exploit the rules as much as possible to build a winning rig. That's just the nature of any competition.

Thank you

Originally Posted by slobin3d

its not the message its the method, maybe I misread his intent but it seems to me he's trying to prove some point beyond the rules. But maybe I'm just to dense. I'm going to bed.....

I was trying to build the most capable rig I could build under the rules that were laid out to me by the event organizers, isn't that how every competition works? In every form of competition I have ever seen the people that are very competitive know the rules inside and out and have studied them to use them to their full extent.

Originally Posted by HotRodJosh

Haha...technically speaking, the rig you posted DOESN"T even have axles.

Really, what gets the power from the motor to the tire?

Originally Posted by HotRodJosh

Scale should look and operate like a real rig that you'd see on the trail in the real world.

Sweet then I guess we all shouldn't be running electric motors then.

Originally Posted by HotRodJosh

But more important than that, the 1st rule of Scale should be to not take it too seriously and have fun.

Then why even make it a competition?

Originally Posted by exesivefire

His argument is the rules changed actually..

Someone else made it about the rig.

Thank you, that is my biggest problem, the rules were made up by this committee, they were reviewed, they were posted, and then they were edited 9 times.

Originally Posted by exesivefire

Personally I dont think MOA should be allowed,

I agree with you as well, but by the rules that were given to all the competitors MOA axles were allowed so I was going to use them to my advantage.

Originally Posted by exesivefire

but also agree that is a big rule change, either way, I'm glad I'm not making the decisions

That is my biggest problem, there was a major rule change AFTER the rules were posted and no one mentioned it.

Originally Posted by War Pig

I'm done.
I'm just going to build the courses and let Ben deal with all the scale rules BS .

Aren't you part of the rules crew? Do you feel it was right to change the rules 9 times after they were originally posted?

[HotRodJosh]

Originally Posted by jason

Really, what gets the power from the motor to the tire?

The hyd motor itself......it's got an splined output shaft going into a torque hub. No axle......
I work on this kinda stuff everyday.

[THnCS]

I have read most of this thread and I have to agree with Jason on this. It is about the rule change midstream. I see this just like a course designers intentions and a competitors lines. You want them to go this way, and then someone like GRIZZLY4x4 goes after you and shows you and the course designer the flaw His route is not the intended route, but did not break any rules. NO OB broken, just smart strategy!! You can't put an OB after someone ran the course, has to stay that way the whole day of competition.


As far as for fun, I call BS! Yes it is toy trucks and it is fun, I had alot of fun last year when I was there. But when you have the $$$ amount of prizes that were given away and won by the top finishers in the scale portion. GAME ON!! I bet Madscrambler left last year with $2k worth of kits and parts, probably had to rent a Uhual trailer to get home.:-P Every person is competitive and wants to win, me included. When money or prizes are not on the line, lets see how many people will pay 500-$2k to fly or drive across the country to just play with toy trucks. Everyone wants a chance to take home $$ and the Glory. I know last year, I was only there for the 2.2 Nats invite. Damn you SCUZZY

[Unimoger]

Originally Posted by jason

Thank you, that is my biggest problem, the rules were made up by this committee, they were reviewed, they were posted, and then they were edited 9 times.



I agree with you as well, but by the rules that were given to all the competitors MOA axles were allowed so I was going to use them to my advantage.



That is my biggest problem, there was a major rule change AFTER the rules were posted and no one mentioned it.

can you please answer my pm.

[badger]

For those that aren't rule nazi's and don't have the rules memorized, here are the changes to the rules since they were originally posted on 01-06-2009 10:07 AM

01-06-2009 02:17 PM
ADDED - You may only run 1 truck in each class, you Cannot run the same truck in both classes.


01-06-2009 02:42 PM
REMOVED - Vehicle must run a full approved body. Fenders may be cut, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.
ADDED - Vehicle must run a full approved body. Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.


01-06-2009 03:22 PM
REMOVED - You must run a complete body, including bumpers, fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained.
ADDED - You must run a complete body, including bumpers, fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.

REMOVED - Vehicle battery must be mounted on the chassis. You CANNOT mount the battery above the steering servo/axle/upper links. The goal is to place the battery where it is not visible for a more scale appearance.
- Vehicle must run a full approved body. Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.
ADDED - - Vehicle battery must be mounted on the chassis. You CANNOT mount the battery above the steering servo/axle/upper links. The goal is to place the battery where it is not visible for a more scale appearance.

REMOVED - You must run a complete body, bumpers, including fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained.
ADDED - You must run a complete body, bumpers, including fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.

REMOVED - Vehicle must run a full approved body. Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale National Committee members.


01-11-2009 03:38 PM
ADDED - Gate progress -1


01-11-2009 06:47 PM
REMOVED - 15. Cooler, sleeping bags , tent, camping gear, shovel , axe, hi-lift jack, tools, pick, jerry can, Functional tow strap, d-rings, snatch block -1
" ^^^^ You must have 4 of these items on line 15 to receive a -1, you may add more, but no points will be awarded. "
ADDED - 15. Camping stuff - Cooler, sleeping bags , tent, camping gear, shovel , axe -1
16. Recovery stuff - hi-lift jack, tools, pick, jerry can, Functional tow strap, d-rings, snatch block -1
" ^^^^ You must have 4 of these items on line 15 and or 16 to receive a -1, you may add more, but no points will be awarded. "


01-19-2009 07:22 PM
REMOVED - 8. Led's of any kind, must be functional during comp -2
ADDED - 8. Led's of any kind, must be front and rear and functional during comp -2


01-25-2009 07:41 PM
REMOVED - You must run a complete body, including bumpers, fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.
ADDED - You must run a complete body, including bumpers, fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. If you remove the tailgate, you must have a complete floor and drop bed. If you want to remove your doors, you must run a full interior. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.

REMOVED - You must run a complete body, bumpers, including fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.
ADDED - You must run a complete body, bumpers, including fenders, doors & tailgates. Some fender trimming is allowed but the basic shape must be retained, Fenders may be cut, or flat fendered, but it must resemble a 1:1 rig you'd see on the street. If you remove the tailgate, you must have a complete floor and drop bed. If you want to remove your doors, you must run a full interior. "Iffy" Vehicles must be approved by the Scale Nationals Committee members.


02-03-2009 03:04 PM
REMOVED - BOTH CLASSES, NO COMP OR TVP CHASSIS, NO FRAME EXTENSIONS TO MAKE IT SCALE EITHER, PERIOD. THIS IS A SCALE EVENT GUYS. Example of these chassis are: SWX, J2-TT, GC-2, etc....
ADDED - BOTH CLASSES, NO COMP OR TVP CHASSIS, NO FRAME EXTENSIONS TO MAKE IT SCALE EITHER, PERIOD. THIS IS A SCALE EVENT GUYS. Example of these chassis are: SWX, J2-TT, GC-2, etc.... alos, NO MOA axles in ether class.


02-03-2009 03:04 PM
REMOVED - BOTH CLASSES, NO COMP OR TVP CHASSIS, NO FRAME EXTENSIONS TO MAKE IT SCALE EITHER, PERIOD. THIS IS A SCALE EVENT GUYS. Example of these chassis are: SWX, J2-TT, GC-2, etc.... alos, NO MOA axles in ether class.
ADDED - BOTH CLASSES, NO COMP OR TVP CHASSIS, NO FRAME EXTENSIONS TO MAKE IT SCALE EITHER, PERIOD. THIS IS A SCALE EVENT GUYS. Example of these chassis are: SWX, J2-TT, GC-2, etc.... also, NO MOA axles in ether class.

[War Pig]

Alright, you drew me back in to this. I do have some comments but Ill respond tonight. Im at work on my phone and its slow a hell.

[jason]

Originally Posted by Unimoger

can you please answer my pm.

Sorry I had to leave to get some work done, looks like Badger answered your pm 2 posts before this one.

[skid]

Might as well bring up the 1.9 comp rules. No moa's in there! Where's the point in that then. Just axed the cliff climbers out of that class. And then the kit body of a Rock Force not being comp legal in 2.2 class. Fashioned under license after a real body.

Rules change, get use to it. New points are always being brought up and usually addressed.

As far as electric motors, can't use any current nitro motors. Don't see many of them running alcohol, besides not providing an acceptable level of performance.

A person can nit-pic about most anything. Are we going to have to run cv's or universal's more like a real u-joint now?

Originally Posted by jason

The big thing that throws my rig out is on 2/3/9 with no mention at all Ben decided to outlaw MOA axles. I knew everyone would complain about my rig, but I was building it 100% within the rules. This event is a competition and when competitive people such as myself enter into competitions they go over the rules with a fine toothed comb to use them to their advantage as much as they can. My rig was going to have all 25 bonus points, look very scale, and be 100% within the rules.

So was the following always in the first post?


"If you feel your rig is borderline, be prepared to modify it if it does not pass tech inspection. AND/ OR bring a BACKUP rig just incase."

[jason]

Originally Posted by skid

Might as well bring up the 1.9 comp rules. No moa's in there! Where's the point in that then. Just axed the cliff climbers out of that class. And then the kit body of a Rock Force not being comp legal in 2.2 class. Fashioned under license after a real body.

We are not talking about the comp rules in this thread, there are plenty of places to talk about those if you want to.

Originally Posted by skid

Rules change, get use to it. New points are always being brought up and usually addressed.

I understand rules change, I would have had no problem with it it they had posted that no MOA's were allowed when they first posted the rules. This is not the first scale nationals, they have had rules in place for years. This year in the offseason they put a committee together to go over the rules with a fine tooth comb. Then when they were ready they released the rules, I figured those rules would stand until next year when they redid them again. That was not the case, they changed them 9 times with no mention. It was just by chance that I caught it in the middle of my build for a comp that is now a month away.

Originally Posted by skid

As far as electric motors, can't use any current nitro motors. Don't see many of them running alcohol, besides not providing an acceptable level of performance.

You shouldn't be able to use nitro motors either, I've never seen a 1:1 trail rig running on nitro. You should have to use gas or diesel.

Originally Posted by skid

A person can nit-pic about most anything. Are we going to have to run cv's or universal's more like a real u-joint now?

I am not nit picking I was building a rig that was 100% within the published rules, and then those rules were changed, after the fact that we were assured the committee had written them exactly how they wanted to, and now I am upset that the rules were changed in the middle of the game.

[Unimoger]

Originally Posted by jason

Sorry I had to leave to get some work done, looks like Badger answered your pm 2 posts before this one.

thank you, yes.

[montana.matt]

Originally Posted by jason

That was not the case, they changed them 9 times with no mention. It was just by chance that I caught it in the middle of my build for a comp that is now a month away.

If I were building a rig for the Scale Nationals (I am), I would have checked the rules several times (I did) before and during my build....
While changes to the rules should have been noted in a post, I think it should be everybody's responsibility to make sure that they keep up on the rules and what they are building stays within the rules. The "No MOA" rule was added in February. You ordered most of your stuff in the last few weeks. You didn't re-check the rules between Feb. and "the last few weeks"?

[skid]

One could also view the moa "rule change" as clarification instead. No where did it say they were allowed. If you think about it, how many moa's have been in a scale national before? 0?

As for relations to scale realism, how many fullsize rigs run two engines or motors? Where to draw the line, that's up to the judges.

In hind sight, ask a question if you have concerns.

[jason]

Originally Posted by montana.matt

If I were building a rig for the Scale Nationals (I am), I would have checked the rules several times (I did) before and during my build....

I did check the rules several times, you can see I have been posting in this thread since the very beginning. I also printed a copy of the rules and have it sitting on my desk so that I could use it as a reference when I build. I was confident that since the rules committee spent so long on the rules that they were done once they were posted.

Originally Posted by montana.matt

The "No MOA" rule was added in February. You ordered most of your stuff in the last few weeks. You didn't re-check the rules between Feb. and "the last few weeks"?

See above.

Originally Posted by skid

One could also view the moa "rule change" as clarification instead. No where did it say they were allowed.

It doesn't say Axials, or TLT's, or rockforces are allowed either, why didn't they clarify those?

Originally Posted by skid

If you think about it, how many moa's have been in a scale national before? 0?

How many SCX-10's have been at the scale nationals before, 0, but I'll bet there will be a crap load of them this year.

Originally Posted by skid

In hind sight, ask a question if you have concerns.

That is the problem, I didn't need to ask a question, I had no concern. My thought process was this, hmm I should build a berg scaler this year, I wonder if they are legal. Let me look here at these rules. Yep they are legal, let's get to building.

Tell me where I went wrong?

[skid]

Originally Posted by jason

It doesn't say Axials, or TLT's, or rockforces are allowed either, why didn't they clarify those?

If in question, ask the commity. You said you knew it would cause a stir?

Originally Posted by jason

How many SCX-10's have been at the scale nationals before, 0, but I'll bet there will be a crap load of them this year.

And the scx10 wasn't available in time for last years. MOA style axles were. And I'd bet there were AX10's with frame rails which is pretty damn close to a scx10.

Originally Posted by jason

That is the problem, I didn't need to ask a question, I had no concern. My thought process was this, hmm I should build a berg scaler this year, I wonder if they are legal. Let me look here at these rules. Yep they are legal, let's get to building.

Tell me where I went wrong?

Again, you said, "I knew everyone would complain about my rig,". Isn't that concern?

We all have our own ideas and own views. Being able to understand others is the key. Yep, I can assure you I'm still working on that, but I try.